before chatgpt i simply didn't do all homework; if it was too tedious i said "fuck it" and left it out.
obviously that tanked my grades but i'm not in school to get good grades, i'm in school to learn interesting stuff.
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Don't be mean. I promise to do my best to judge that fairly.
before chatgpt i simply didn't do all homework; if it was too tedious i said "fuck it" and left it out.
obviously that tanked my grades but i'm not in school to get good grades, i'm in school to learn interesting stuff.
The issue is that only some of them intrinsically want to get gud. They want other people to do the shit they don't want to do. They're happy to let a robot do the stuff they're bored by but there are things that for some reason some teachers think is super important every student learn but are actually just shit the teacher is emotionally attached to. I know, I work at an after school program. We have no curriculum but most of my fellow counselors are also teachers (or substitute teachers) and they are obsessed with getting ALL of the kids to care about every topic they teach. I get along with them interpersonally, and one is even my friend but they are petty tyrants with the kids IMO and I get into methodological arguments with them here and there.
Most kids have a niche, I say let them focus on it. Not try and force all of them to be jack of all trades unless its bare bones basics of functioning (Reading, writing, math, scientific method/reasoning).
I remember being a kid that loved reading and writing, did great (lots of 100s or at least 90+) at generic vocab/english assignments and the like. But then whenever I had to read a book I did not give a shit about or write an essay about something I had zero interest in it was like I was trying to telepathically push an mountain with a single functioning neuron. I just couldn't do it at all so I'd get zeros on those assignments.
The moment the book seemed cool or the writing topic was fairly open ended I usually did fantastic and even surprised teachers in a few cases. Had it been available to me I 100% would of ChatGPT'd the shit I did not care about but I'd totally do the stuff I was intrinsically interested in anyways without ChatGPT.
I hated it when teachers would get narcissistic. But in universities it becomes a huge issue. There are computer science majors in my campus that are bored by math and programming so use chatgpt.
They are bored by the degree they chose themselves. So instead of changing degree plan or learning to enjoy it as a hobby like you would normally do, they just cheat.
Professors' workarounds are worse. Universities do not execute any "academic dishonesty" actions because they are the ones giving students free chatgpt account after a deal with openai.
So professors either use AI flaggers that give false positives and give everyone 0, or more commonly just give extremely hard exams to offset homework grade inflation.
Zoomers are worse the fucking boomers and alphas are going to be worse still.
Can confirm, in college I mostly partied and screwed around, but thanks to years of practice at procrastination I had by then developed the skill of throwing anything together at the last minute. So I could go to the library after dinner the night before a paper was due, find the right shelf, grab a handful of books and write a rough draft of an essay in couple hours. Back in the dorm by 10pm, I would make some edits, type it up (this was in the typewriter era), and turn it in on time for at least a B. But like I said, this was after years of putting off assignments in elementary and high school. Turns out this is an extremely valuable skill in office environments, where due to poor planning there's frequently some crisis that has to be solved ASAFP. People who can come through with decent work under completely unrealistic deadline pressure become all-stars. LPT: if you're actually doing that and not getting the credit and rewards you deserve, move somewhere else - you've valuable.
People who can come through with decent work under completely unrealistic deadline pressure become all-stars.
I did this for my last company. We were about to lose our biggest client because we (not including me) had agreed to an impossible deadline to deliver a piece of software for them. I spent two weeks basically living at work and we (meaning mostly I) were able to deliver a bare-minimum product on time and keep our contract with the client alive. This kept our company intact long enough for us to be acquired by a major west coast tech giant - at which point I was rewarded with a layoff notice, while my bosses got millions in stock grants. I got a severance which was basically equal to what I would have been eligible to get from unemployment, which meant I didn't get any unemployment but at least I didn't have to pretend to look for work for six months.
I did it with no illusions about what my reward might or might not be. I just don't like being involved in any way with project failures.
We were about to lose our biggest client because we (not including me) had agreed to an impossible deadline to deliver a piece of software for them. I spent two weeks basically living at work and we (meaning mostly I) were able to deliver a bare-minimum product on time and keep our contract with the client alive. This kept our company intact long enough for us to be acquired by a major west coast tech giant - at which point I was rewarded with a layoff notice, while my bosses got millions in stock grants.
Did this radicalize you? This would have radicalized me.
I was radicalized in the '80s. Nothing has surprised me since then.
Using chatgpt to do your school work is like paying/beating up a nerd to do your work for you. You won't learn shit, and there is a chance you'll get in trouble for cheating.
Except, the nerd will probably do the school work correctly.
Not if they are smart enough to know it would be suspicious if the dumb student suddenly started getting 100℅, so they purposely fudge a few answers.
we used to do this thing called "learning".
It's called git gudding now.
git -f gud
Isn't that gud gitting?
My nephew wants to be instantly good at things and it drives me crazy. He'll roll his eyes and say "of course you're going to make that shot (in billiards) or get frustrated that's he's not amazing without practicing in martial arts, video games, golf, fitness, etc. I'm sure he'll grow out of it, but in the meantime he won't work at it or accept instruction. I'm like "yeah dude, I've done this thousands of times. Let me help you!"
My youngest (now 27) has a bit of a problem with that. The issue is that he's smart and most things always came easy to him. He'd do those giant writing assignments the night before that are supposed to be worked on for weeks and still get the high grade. Hardly ever seemed to study, but got solid A's. But when something comes along that he's not automatically good at, he gets super frustrated. He wanted to learn the guitar in high school (I play a little), so we bought him one and some basic instruction, but he hated it because it didn't come naturally. It's a decoration on his wall.
I will give him this though: he decided a few years back that he wanted to learn to draw, and that didn't come naturally, but he's continued to work at it and has gotten pretty decent. So it's something a person can get past.
I just wanted to add something to my earlier post. It may be that playing a guitar is highly noticeable. You can't practice often without everyone around you hearing it. Even if you became skilled, there is the expectation of performing in front of people, and most intelligent people feel they need to perform at the top level.
Drawing however allows you to practice in private and present only your best work. Which allows the ego and social standing to stay intact. Everyone has an identity that they make for themselves but often it limits them to always stay between those lines, especially in front of others.
That's certainly a possibility.
This is a common trap for intelligent people. Because of years of everything being easy you have that expectation for every situation. You never learn how to challenge yourself. Additionally your identity and social status was built on always being capable and smarter than others around you.
When suddenly you run into something that actually takes study and dedication, you just don't know how. Studying and persistence are learned skills. It's also embarrassing and causes you to shy away. Things seem impossible if you have no experience of being challenged. Depression and avoidance takes over.
Before you know it you're middle aged and never did any of the amazing things that everyone expected of you as a child prodigy. Potential was capped at the level that requires no effort.
My wife is really smart and says she just "sees" the answer to math problems. Ask her to multiple two 3-digit numbers and she does it quickly in her head. Was never like that for me, I always have to work the process even for simple things, it's never obvious. I got a CS degree with a math minor, and took some pretty high level math classes. It was always the same for me: learn the process, then work it through, whether it's number theory or multiplying two numbers.
My wife didn't get a degree, but she went back to school as an adult. When she got to the first math class that had symbolic/algebraic notation, she ground to a halt initially. She couldn't just see the answer, and she had no practice working through the process. Was a real slog for her.
Being brilliant is a gift, but you need to learn to work the mental muscles too.
This is basically why I believe that effortless As in grade school are a failure state for kids. People tell me that mu standards are too high for my kid, but I cannot express to them that now is the time for my kid to build up the ability to struggle and persevere. It's not that I have high standards. I just think that a perfect score is a sign that the task wasn't hard enough.
I saw way too many kids burn out in college because they'd never seem a grade below an A before, let alone the C they just scored. Since I was used to being pushed to my limit in grade school (not by my mother, but by teachers), I was fully prepared to work hard to barely make a B sometimes.
You can go too far in the other direction and burn out an intelligent child for the rest of their life.
There is some balance between allowing them to build confidence with some A's among their peers, and then also being challenged to get that C they didn't think was possible.
Nobody can always function at 100% anyway and both experiences build different skills. It's like how you can't lift heavy weights all day every day. You need down time and stretching as well as aerobic exercise if you want to be able to make full use of the strength.
I think learning to be happy with a B is an important skill. I don't believe that As should be effortless. If an A is effortless, then that means the kid wasn't in a challenging enough class. In real life the only reward for hard work is more work. Leaning when they want to push for the A and when they want to be content with a B is an important think for them to decide. Perfection should never be the goal. That's how kids burn out at the college level.
Hmm, mixed emotions here. On the one hand, I agree that grade school kids are capable of much more than we typically teach them. I remember a 5th grade teacher who taught us math up through fractions, and then not getting anything new in math until like 8th or 9th grade.
On the other hand, I don't think making it a struggle, with a scale that tells most of them that they didn't quite measure up, is the way to successfully teach young kids. That 5th grade teacher I mentioned made the class fun, and we weren't aware that we were leaning stuff at a faster rate than the other classes. It was all very positive.
If my kid thinks that being less than perfect is a personal failing then I have failed as a parent. That's the point of challenge my kid. To teach her that she doesn't have to be perfect. That's a B is okay. Doing your best is okay. Hell, doing what you feel like is okay as long as you hit that minimum standard which is a C.
I don't intend to make my kid struggle for a B, but As should not be effortless. If my kid isn't putting in the work then I don't think they should get an A. I think it's okay not to have an A. I was always a solid B student even in college and I was and still am okay with that. It made me a chiller kid in college and it gave me space to learn how to expand my capacity because I was so shocked by how "poorly" I did.
I was the kind of kid to get good grades without really trying, and I think I would have been better off if I had been challenged. Instead I just coasted, and when I got to calc2 I failed. I still don't have great learning habits.
Teach him to fail. Those kids are afraid of failing because somewhere in life someone traumatized them so they don't like to ever fail at anything.
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." - Bruce Lee
Edit, in the same spirit: "The difference between a novice and a master is that the master has failed more times than the novice has even tried." - No idea who
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ChatGPT land this plane with the engine failed for me. ChatGPT do this triple bypass heat surgery for me.
I’m sure that people will come up with excuses why this is different than cheating on an essay, but the point is that if one can’t study for the basic shit then doing the hard shit is going to be even harder. It’s not flipping a switch and saying “ok now I’ll take it all seriously…”. Then again, someone shirking basic work skills is probably destined for a retail middle manager job and not someone headed for radiology.
I'm a pilot and flight instructor. When I was a teenager, I would neglect English and Math homework to read my private pilot textbook.
See, there's this guy named Edward Thorndike who described several basic principles of learning, including the Principle of Readiness. See, learning is an active process, takes effort to do, and effort sucks. So people will only endure the suck of effort if they genuinely believe they'll get anything out of it. Students will best learn a lesson if they understand the value of the lesson to them in their lives. No, "you'll never know when algebra will save your life" is not good enough. No, "Someday this might come in handy" isn't good enough. Because of quiz-based game shows with million dollar cash prizes, that applies to literally everything from Mayan architecture to the seventh season of Friends.
My lived experience with essay writing is it was almost always an exercise in pointless pedantry. Thirteen years of public school and five years of college, I was almost always graded on punctuation, grammar, spelling, and strict adherence to the MLA style guide. One of the few essays that was graded for content was in an engineering class I took. We were to research a notable engineering failure, where something bad happened and an engineer was at fault. I chose the McDonnell-Douglas DC-10 cargo door and the two in-flight emergencies it caused. I cited the actual NTSB reports and the Applegate memo. Of all the essays I wrote for English teachers, I don't remember the topic of a single one, my memories of writing them involve "Okay when it's a periodical, the title is italicized, but when it's in a journal..."
When teachers answer "Why do we have to learn this" with "it's required for your diploma" literally don't learn it. It is a mandatory waste of time designed to either be a bullshit tolerance exercise or included because it aesthetically resembles academics.
That doesn't happen in aviation curricula because flying a plane fucking matters and there's a point to everything we teach. Under part 61, anyway. Part 65 is full of horse shit. I went to mechanic school and learned there's no such thing as an aircraft that's safe to fly. I build furniture now.
What were we talking about?
"what did students do before chatgpt?"
Is this supposed to be an actual quote? Like, someone said this unironically?
Yep.
Parts of Gen Z, and a lot of Gen A, will 100% seriously tell you that learning basically anything other than how to prompt ChatGPT is a stupid waste of time.
They'll all go feral when they can no longer afford it or the power goes out or the system crashes for a significant amount of time, as they've never learned how to think, nor anything useful to think about.
We haven't had LLMs that long. Are people seriously already forgetting the concept of learning skills?
In the U.S., the issue is that our education system is already fundamentally broken and doing a terrible job of teaching kids. Adding LLMs to that is like striking a match in the tinderbox.
I teach collegiate intro programming classes, I can say it definitely seems that way. My office hours will be an absolute ghost town, nobody has any questions for me in class, and then when a project is due about 1/3 of the submissions are AI slop.
I know cheating has always been rampant, but I've never seen it this bad before.
I had a friend in high school who did the hand drawing exercise, it does work. He got really good at drawing hands.
Also: being able to draw hands is the most important identifier of not being an ai.
That's honestly how everything works. Nobody starts good at anything. If you want to be good at something, you have to suck first. You have to fail over and over and over again and learn a tiny bit each time as you hone your craft.
It works for everything. My dad made me tie a thousand knots because my shoelaces kept coming untied and now as an adult I am super in-demand in our local bdsm scene.
Father of the year!