this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2025
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Today I Learned

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[–] General_Effort@lemmy.world 39 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

The murder of political enemies by the Nazis is usually not considered part of the Holocaust.

The Nazis created concentration camps to detain people immediately after they assumed power. The death camps in which millions were gassed were its own thing within that system.

The detainment concentration camps were for leftists and democrats. Then also people from the margins of society. The so-called "work-shy"; meaning people who had for whatever reason troubles functioning. It would have included Hitler if he hadn't succeeded with that politics grift. Gay people, of course. Jehovah's Witnesses because they were conscientious objectors. Of course, people were tortured and maltreated in these camps, too. But how bad it was very much depended on the status of the prisoner.

The first Holocaust killings are usually said to be the hospital patients who were victims of the Aktion T4 in September 1939 when the war started. Disabled people who needed care were murdered to free up resources for the war effort. One method was locking them in an idling truck and suffocating them with exhaust fumes.

[–] Headofthebored@lemmy.world 13 points 20 hours ago

One method was locking them in an idling truck and suffocating them with exhaust.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_van

[–] 58008@lemmy.world 77 points 1 day ago (13 children)

I've been reading about the Holocaust a fair bit of late, and it's interesting to see the debate around the functionalist/intentionalist view of how it happened. OP's story seems to lend credence to the former version, in that the Nazi state was a patchwork of warring factions that were each trying to take power for themselves and in an effort to do so, tried a little too hard to do what they imagined Hitler wanted of them, namely more and more murder and ruthlessness and general mayhem, eventually culminating in plans for wholesale extermination. This is the functionalist view, where things happened almost in a bottom-up fashion, whereas the intentionalist idea is one where Hitler planned the Holocaust from day one in a top-down approach. I personally think it's more likely to be the former though, at least from what I've read about it anyway.

Growing up in the '80s and '90s, I never really learned much about the Holocaust aspect of WWII. I knew the broad strokes, of course, but the finer details of the Nazi state's operations are where the true horror lies. Even without WWII or the Holocaust, it was one of the purest examples of a nightmarish dystopia run by corrupt, amoral, incompetent, petty, narcissistic lunatics and sociopaths. The parallels with certain modern governments is terrifying...

[–] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 38 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

Very few people understand what fascism is in the concrete day to day sense. Fascist politics are very normalized in the modern world. They obfuscate everything they do. The more they can confuse and entangle antifascists the better. While we try and deconstruct their empty statements and lies they spend the whole time making confusing and conflicting statements, trying to garner as much support from bigoted people as possible. Its a union of bigotry, greed, and manipulation.

Fascists are themselves parasitic to democracy. Their existence within democracy whatsoever steadily nurtures them. The more tolerable their ideas are the faster they will grow. Tolerating Nazis at all is the same thing as promoting them. Their ideology spreads like a virus, it doesnt try to convince you merely overwhelms you. It harkens out to the priviledged masses fear of the other, and then surrounds them in a fog of conflicting information and symbolism. It says "believe in me and I will keep you safe" before outputting a barrage of rage, hatred, disgust, fear and dread. It uses language like symbolism itself. It preoccupies itself with definitions, centralizing itself as authority over reality itself. Once someone has become a fascist it is statistically impossible to change their views. Once someone has become a fascist they are overwhelmingly likely to never change. There is no scientifically proven way to deradicalize them. That's how powerful a hold it creates. True believers in fascism exist in this perpetual state of anger and confusion. The rest see utility in fascism, to advance their bigotry or to profit off of corruption.

[–] brygphilomena@lemmy.dbzer0.com 23 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

I was watching the PBS American Experience episode on Nazi City, USA.

Hearing literally the same words that came out of the American Nazi party in 1930s that have been spewed by Republicans in the last 10 years was frankly TERRIFYING.

[–] zqps@sh.itjust.works 8 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

One of the gravest mistake we can make is to believe it can't happen here / it can't happen again.

[–] Deceptichum@quokk.au 6 points 20 hours ago

The gravest mistake is not violently putting it down the second it sprung up.

[–] GladiusB@lemmy.world 14 points 23 hours ago (7 children)

What is wild is that MOST people had no idea about the Holocaust as it was happening. That when we learn of WWII and all that was around it and you hear about the camps you think "no shit we went to help with that." But then find out that wasn't really a motivation for the masses is crazy.

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[–] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Interesting debate, and certainly has some truth to it. Because individuals seek personal gain, they fulfill someone else's ideology they don't really care about but it helps them to get promoted or get rich. But Hitler definitely planned the holocaust as a "final solution to the Jewish question" in Mein Kampf.

In that sense Trump is very different from Hitler - he doesn't really believe in anything but being the strong man. He has no ideology. He's not really a racist. But he adopts ideology that enchants and beguile the masses, so it works similar to the functionalist view.

I believe that MAGA functionaries actually look for things that would shock and pain liberals, and then make that real, simply because it would be "fun" for the MAGA crowd and enrage the libs, and keep them constantly in a confused and shocked state. Just to keep it all going.

[–] tlekiteki@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 points 1 day ago (2 children)

You dont think Trump is racist?????

White people invented the power plant, the car, and the plane. It requires an explanation.

One explanation is that culture and science advanced to the point where that is possible, by `standing on the shoulders of giants´ ~ Isaac Newton

Royalty like Trump prefer an explanation that their blood and genes, rather than their privilege and opportunities, are greater than others. Since they wont admit that men are created equal, they cling to belief in hierarchy.

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 7 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago)

I think I understand what they mean. Trump is not a racist ideologue. He's not a "capital R" Racist, the way Hitler was. He's racist and his racism influences everything he does of course. But that's "lowercase r" racist. It's not what defines him, it's just one of his characteristics, maybe not even his most defining one.

[–] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 5 points 23 hours ago (2 children)

Well I do think he is "casually" racist but not serious. Like it's not a guiding ideology. If it's between making a scene or shaking the hand of a colored person's hand he has no problem with that. He doesn't really give a shit. He's a malignant narcissist, which means he is driven by the psychological need to be "the best and most amazing person". Justifying that just because of his whiteness would probably almost be an insult to his unique greatness.

I also think his mind is in a kind of fugue state where he's not fully conscious, like sleepwalking. He's more like an LLM that is constantly throwing things out "to win" and his mind is optimized to do that very well. If you'd institutionalize him, put him on medication to calm him down and then slowly and calmly begin talk therapy you'd probably find he's just a standard narcissist without any special ideology. Possibly Hitler was similarily "out there" in that regard, but they actually and truly believed in their ideology. They also believed in their nation and making it great, which Trump doesn't give a shit about either.

You can define fascism (including racism or sexism) as a "sincere belief in inequality based on identity". He certainly believes in that, just only for himself. In comparison, neoliberals also have a sincere belief in inequality, just based on class / wealth.

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[–] WhiskyTangoFoxtrot@lemmy.world 14 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

He’s not really a racist.

No, he is. Yeah, he'll pick up and abandon most positions at the drop of a hat, but racism has been one thing that he's been consistent with, going back at least to the Central Park Five.

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[–] FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world 144 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (33 children)

I'm currently reading Hitler's First Victims and while I knew Nazism was gaining power in the early 1930's, I didn't actually know that the systemic murder of Jews began this early, nor that anyone in the legal apparatus at the time tried to stop it, so this was heartening in a way even though they didn't ultimately succeed.

There are a lot of parallels with what's happening now under Donald Trump, particularly the intentional destruction of the rule of law, which made the establishment of Dachau and the ~~kidnapping~~ indefinite imprisonment and murder of Jewish political prisoners possible.

[–] Arsecroft@lemmy.sdf.org 38 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Another great book about the actual process of the holocaust is IBM and the Holocaust. Lots of detail about how the victims were targetted and then how IT really made a lot of the horrors possible

Recommended read for anyone curious about the logistics.

[–] FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world 14 points 1 day ago

I'll add it to my list. Thank you for the recommendation.

[–] Skyrmir@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Been thinking about that one with the AI fun they're building now. If you think IBM helped the holocaust, just wait till you see what ChatGPT can do. It's going to be like thought police.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 4 points 21 hours ago

Look up Palantir

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[–] enthusiasticamoeba@lemmy.ml 8 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

It's also very worth noting that disabled people (many also Jewish, of course) were the first group systematically exterminated en masse by the Nazis. Disabled people were legally required to be sterilized starting already in 1933 when the Nazis came into power, and mass euthanasia started in 1939 (called Aktion T4). Mass killings of other victims in concentration camps began in 1941.

The people who were considered disabled was subject to interpretation. Alcoholism, epilepsy, paralysis, blindness, and "work shyness" were all conditions considered unworthy of life.

Autistic people, then believed to have a form of schizophrenia, were also a main target. In fact, the term Asperger's syndrome was coined by Hans Asperger as a means of determining which autistics were bound for work camps versus death camps. This is part of the reason why Asperger's is no longer considered its own syndrome but is considered part of the larger autism spectrum. The delineations between the former autistic subtypes were too vague and subjective to be accurate.

Unfortunately, disabled victims of the Holocaust receive little recognition to this day, but it's not surprising when disabled people still have reduced status under the law in most countries.

Few countries offer enough welfare benefits to ensure a decent standard of living. Even then, you lose access to those benefits if you manage to build assets worth more than a few thousand dollars/euros. We cannot get married without reduced benefits in many countries. Few countries have sufficient accessibility laws. Things like obtaining a driver's licence can cost much more with certain disabilities. Many countries prohibit immigration with certain disabilities.

Disabled activists have been sounding the alarm on all this for decades, because we are historically first on the chopping block when shit gets real. Keep that in mind when RFK Jr. starts talking about an autism registry or work camps for psychiatric patients.

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[–] einkorn@feddit.org 30 points 1 day ago (1 children)

One of the most well know and influential anti Nazi songs of the era The Peat Bog Soldiers was composed in 1933 as well.

Even years before the outbreak of war in Europe these camps had already had a storied history.

[–] BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm an old musician, who remembers the role that musicians played in the Vietnam War Resistance. The current population music industry would never allow their artists to be so openly resistant today.

So I've been looking for music to revive, and create a soundtrack for the growing resistance. This might be a good one.

It's also time to revive all those good old protest folk songs by Woody Guthrie and the like. Songs like This Land Is Your Land.

[–] CaptDust@sh.itjust.works 5 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (1 children)

The current population music industry would never allow their artists to be so openly resistant today.

Bands like Rise Against and System of a Down got a lot of air time around the Iraq war, and could go back to 90s with Rage against the Machine and the late punk bands - but I've definitely precieved an industry shift towards promoting music that celebrates apathy and embracing futility in recent years.

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[–] londos@lemmy.world 13 points 1 day ago

I also recommend In the Garden of Beasts, by Erik Larson. It follows the US ambassador to Germany in the 30s and how he tries to warn his counterparts back home how bad things are getting. Again, many parallels.

[–] match@pawb.social 5 points 23 hours ago

I'm sick of parallels, when are we gonna do orthogonals

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[–] SnarkoPolo@lemmy.world 26 points 1 day ago (4 children)

When the killing starts here in the states, the media will just report on basketball and celebrities.

[–] FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You're right.

And the big social media platforms will censor any information about it. We already saw with January 6th that Americans are perfectly happy to just ignore what they can see with their own two eyes, so I suspect, it won't be too heavy a lift for them to step over dead bodies in the streets as long as the smell isn't too much.

[–] Triasha@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

Nothing will fundamentally change until people are skipping meals. Not, like, a few people, more than half the people.

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[–] solsangraal@lemmy.zip 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

and here we are with "someone died in ~~detention~~ false imprisonment" as just another tuesday

[–] FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world 16 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I try to make it a point not to use the word 'detention' since it's so purposefully sanitized.

[–] solsangraal@lemmy.zip 10 points 1 day ago (2 children)

good call. language matters now more than ever, and their newspeak redefinition of words needs to be recognized as the weapon they're using it for

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[–] Treczoks@lemmy.world 13 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Well, at least you now know that happens next in the US.

[–] FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world 15 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

You're not wrong.

Having read a lot of history on the subject, the hope I do have is in the thousands who resisted the Nazis and Russians in small ways. Most of their names are forgotten (or fake, as is the way with resistance), but their stories survived because many of the people they helped told those stories after the war. Not everyone can be a Schindler or a Winton, but there are going to be more than a few who find a way to help people where needed as things get worse.

[–] TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m00084td/rise-of-the-nazis

that is what told me the USA is fucked; that series is so spot on to what is happening here

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