Banned? DM Wmill to appeal.
No anti-nautilism posts. See: Eco-fascism Primer
Slop posts go in c/slop. Don't post low-hanging fruit here.
I think it's worth noting that, prior to the war, the default position was "There are definitely Nazis in Ukraine and we should be concerned about that." The position changed to "There are no Nazis in Ukraine" on the day the invasion started and people have been flailing around since trying to figure out how to reconcile that against years of generally accepted reporting on the rise of the Ukrainian far-right.
I don’t understand the ultimate goal here. What is the point of this meme that has been flooding lemmy lately? Liberals follow major media outlets. Major media outlets like simple stories of good and bad. So they conveniently ignore things that don’t fit into that narrative…but the same is true of every single world event.
What is the ultimate point of this? It’s obviously not to point out what I just stated. There is a goal here and it seems…like supporting Russia, a global superpower and aggressor, in a war against—what is being painted here as just a bunch of nazis. The unspoken message here is, “you don’t want to support a bunch of nazis. Go russia.”
Am I…missing something?
liberals hate socialists more than they hate fascists, and despite their protestations they will side with the fascists when push comes to shove. this is yet another example of it. no, russia isn't socialist, but the cold war propaganda runs so fucking deep that that fact doesn't actually matter, "russia" is still equated with "communism" 30+ years after the fall of the soviet union.
we don't support russia, we support ending the war with minimal further death. that happens atm to mean "not sending over a bunch of weapons while cheering to send another country's people into a defensively-fortified meatgrinder"
we don't support russia
Speak for yourself, I do and I hope they have complete and total victory over NATO proxies. You have a revolutionary defeatist duty to critically support Russia in this fight against your empire. Fence-sitting is not revolutionary defeatism, revolutionary defeatism means critically supporting the opponents of your own side.
revolutionary defeatism means critically supporting the opponents of your own side
Lenin didn't meant that the SPD has to gather money to send to the Tsarist army though.
This is an instance of high-flown phraseology with which Trotsky always justifies opportunism. A “revolutionary struggle against the war” is merely an empty and meaning less exclamation, something at which the heroes of the Second International excel, unless it means revolutionary action against one’s own government even in wartime. One has only to do some thinking in order to understand this. Wartime revolutionary action against one’s own government indubitably means, not only desiring its defeat, but really facilitating such a defeat. ("Discerning reader”: note that this does not mean “blowing up bridges”, organising unsuccessful strikes in the war industries, and ·in general helping the government defeat the revolutionaries.)
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/jul/26.htm
You agree that NATO/US is perpetuating a proxy war against Russia correct? You live in a NATO country/US? Then it's your duty "really facilitating such a defeat [of one's own government]". That means organizing successful strikes in the war industries and stopping ammo/weapon shipments and raising a stink against money going to Ukraine. It means pointing out the Ukrainian Nazis and desiring their DEFEAT as our own proxies.
I suppose it doesn't truly matter whether you "critically support" Russia or not, as an American or westerner - in that your prayers won't materially empower either side or have any outcome (as long as your still organize against support/weapons for Ukraine with the rest of the revolutionaries). However, when we are having discussions amongst ourselves what good is it to all lie and pretend like we don't want Russia to win? We do, it's in our best interests. I think a lot of westerners just aren't ready to make the final leap to a full revolutionary position - just like many in the 2nd international couldn't and the SPD voted for war bonds to support their own imperialist government, breaking solidarity with the proletariat of other nations. Russia winning is the best outcome though for revolutionaries in the US and across the globe, destroying the hegemonic empire is a necessary pre-requisite step to any revolutionary activity anywhere. AmeriKKKa must be destroyed and Russia is the one doing the most damage to it currently.
Lenin worked with Germany and took resources from them. Marx raised money for the Ottomans. Yes, it in fact does mean opposing your own empire by supporting its opponents (and getting supported by its opponents, in Lenin's case) and sabotaging your own empire.
Fence-sitting is passive and neutral. Revolutionary Defeatism is active and works against ones own empire (de facto supporting its opponents) by being a 5th column. Essentially it's being a reverse-comprador. Instead of being a traitor to your own nation in order to empower a foreign imperialist/colonizer coming into your country, you are supposed to be a traitor to your own imperialist nation in order to empower a foreign colony/target to remove your own empire and its proxies.
This is why one of the most essential tasks of any revolutionary party is to analyze and assess whether their own nation is imperialist or not. Not all capitalist nations are imperialist (Gaddafi being attacked by NATO/US deserves critical support, a Libyan revolutionary should not have sabotaged their own nation during war while an America/NATO resident should have).
Lenin worked with Germany and took resources from them. Marx raised money for the Ottomans. Yes, it in fact does mean opposing your own empire by supporting its opponents (and getting supported by its opponents, in Lenin's case) and sabotaging your own empire.
The question is who you support though, and revolutionary socialists, including Lenin, didn't give money to the Tsar, Metternich, or George V. They sought out different avenues. Supporting revolutionary groups, articles, only in limited cases sabotages, some criminal acts which disturbed the military supply chains and agitation within the military.
This is a far cry from thinking it is enough to be public about critical support of governments online. The latter would be the equivalent of :vote: for anti-imperialists. The former a principled response that actually figures out what the critical means.
Did you read my other comment? I address this pretty clearly
I suppose it doesn't truly matter whether you "critically support" Russia or not, as an American or westerner - in that your prayers won't materially empower either side or have any outcome (as long as your still organize against support/weapons for Ukraine with the rest of the revolutionaries). However, when we are having discussions amongst ourselves what good is it to all lie and pretend like we don't want Russia to win? We do, it's in our best interests. I think a lot of westerners just aren't ready to make the final leap to a full revolutionary position…
Essentially my issue with western leftists that go around fence sitting and couching their views to liberals as neutral are being dishonest. They are either confused about who they should be supporting or they are lying about it to appeal to Liberals and not to rock the Liberal boat of western consensus. They are spreading social chauvinism instead of correct Leninist analysis of the war.
And by the way, Marx and Engels did raise money for the Ottoman Empire. However that was just one example, nowhere did I propose hexbear money drives for Russia.
that's ideologically-committed liberals, mind you. plenty of people are just ambiently "liberals" because conservatives are so blatantly odious, so this isn't like a curse or something and normal people can snap out of it before reaching the "defending literal nazis" stage
The ambient libs mostly don't care as much about politics or have checked out partially, they may be outraged over some blatant nazism but they aren't organized or mobilized to do anything about it and will quickly fall back into their malaise.
When the Nazi/fascist minoritarians take power, they usually have the blatant support of around 30% of the population. The other 70% aren't all anti-fascist partisans or Schindler's hiding and saving jews. Most of them are ambient libs who continue being ambient libs/ambient fash and just acclimatize to the the current political zeitgeist.
“you don’t want to support a bunch of nazis. Go russia.”
A big part of why I ended up hear in hexbear is because it's one of the only places where everybody doesn't lie about your beliefs to just off handedly dismiss your concerns.
It's really interesting how everybody actually in this sub talks about how it's bad Russia invaded and they're deffinitly aggressors and denounce them, we just think nazis are bad.
At a certain point after seeing dozens of people say "you said nazis are bad therefore you support russia" you kind of stop giving a shit what the people actively lying abaout you are saying.
We're sating we don't support a bunchbof nazis.
Dumbshit libs then have to insist that it's because we're just a bunch of Russian nationalists, because otherwise they might have to wrestle with the thought that they're frothing mad at people for saying nazis are bad.
A big part of why I ended up hear in hexbear is because it's one of the only places where everybody doesn't lie about your beliefs to just off handedly dismiss your concerns.
Ok, then I won't lie and will state the truth as bluntly as possible. I personally think the anti-Russia stance of western socialists is chauvinist and incoherent and have argued as much constantly here, with mixed support. As I have explained down below, it's a western socialist's revolutionary defeatist duty to oppose their own empire by being a fifth column and critically supporting its enemies. Lenin was quite clear on this, it does not mean passive fence sitting and both-sidesism. It in fact, is much the opposite. It's active attacks on one's own imperialist government through organized activity to interfere with NATO war funds, NATO war supplies, NATO war support, etc.
It's an incoherent position to say "I oppose my nation's imperialism but I also oppose the enemies of my nation". You don't get to say both. We can argue if the invasion in February 2022 was a strategic error or not, but that doesn't really matter because we are not Russian war strategizers. We are western socialists. Do you understand your place and role? It's to weaken your empire, and if you can work with its enemies to do so you should.
It's really interesting how everybody actually in this sub talks about how it's bad Russia invaded and they're deffinitly aggressors and denounce them, we just think nazis are bad.
Z. Russia is defending itself and I support their invasion. I think Nazis are bad and need violent action taken against them when they build up concentrated military power. I'm glad someone is finally doing it, despite Putin being a liberal cuck who waited 8 years too long to do it - strung along by EU perfidy.
I've definitely come around from 'war is bad, no one should be at war' to 'the elimination of reactionary forces, specifically those who adorn nazi regalia, is paramount to the continuation of humanity'. Is Russia perfect, no; is Russia killing Nazis at a faster rate than the rest of the world, absolutely yes. Do I want every Nazi in the world dead yesterday, yes; who is going to deliver that goal, Russia; who isn't going to deliver that goal, US and NATO.
Us: The Waffen-SS ~~was~~ is bad.
You: But whatabout Russia?
It’s becoming abundantly clear that you guys heard the buzzword “whataboutism” and are desperate to use it. But please point to what you think is whataboutism here. I was asking if people here are pro-Russia. And I very much got my answer
It’s becoming abundantly clear that you guys heard the buzzword “whataboutism” and are desperate to use it.
Pure projection, try criticizing America in a lib space like yours
Remember in 2016 when libs pretended they wanted to punch and de-platform nazis? Lmao, turns out that was 100% complete and total opportunist bullshit
