chapotraphouse

I've seen a lot of posts on this site that are leaning into anti semitic tropes while criticizing Israel.

This is a pretty strong claim to make without presenting any evidence. In fact, is an extremely common thing reactionaries will say, and if any evidence is eventually presented, 99% it's something inanely unoffensive like a lot of words for "free parking" or "plz no murder".

For anyone who choose to read my comment but not the rest of OP's post, the rest of OP's post does have good points about not using terms that can be interpreted as antisemitic dog-whistles.

IMO rephrasing this as an educational PSA instead an accusation would be better.

Recognize the role of the US empire in Palestinian oppression. Recognize that jews are in an ambivalent racial category and are an oppressed people. Be specific when criticizing Israeli colonialism. Name who you're criticizing, is it the settlements? The IDF? Likud? The US military Industrial Complex? Stop calling for ethnic cleansing of jews if you've been doing that. Don't equate jewishness with whiteness / the Nazis. White people are white people, the US is the Nazis.

Why isn't "Israel" on your list of OK to criticize groups? The colonialist state of Israel needs to be destroyed and wiped off the face of the earth, and this is not anti-semitic to say. I've not seen one person on this site blaming all jews for anything. Can you provide even a single example of this that wasn't quickly removed by mods? Stop vague posting and concern trolling if you don't have an explicit example, now is not the time to center the attention on yourself.

Many Israelis are liberals, hoping to vote out Likud, stop supporting settlements, and negotiate palestinian statehood. These people are advocating half measures, sure, but they are not our enemies.

Maybe they aren't your enemies, but they're mine. Fuck off with this lib bullshit. It's not only rge recent settlements in, eg the West Bank, that are settlements, ALL Zionists in Palestine are settlers, even those who are heckin wholesome liberals who think Palestinians can have a little of their stolen land back. Your post is soft Zionist apologia, and I think it's gross

I've seen a lot of posts on this site that are leaning into anti semetic tropes while criticizing Israel. I want to point it out so that folks can recognize it.

You should take the opportunity to give examples of those posts and call them out directly by name and date of registration. Because I can't imagine anyone leaning into anti-semitic tropes is anything but a reactionary wrecker. I don't think you would accuse anyone of being anti-semitic in bad faith but it's important to remember that this is the number one technique of the ultranationalist lobbyists of Israel when it comes to silencing or slandering pro-palestinian voices. And it's a very good technique on their part because of the very grim and important history of antisemitism, mostly coming from the very nations funding Israeli settler-colonialism in Palestine.

Israel is a colonial outpost of the United States. It was created by Britain and inherited by the US. The US gives Israel ~3,000,000,000 USD in aid every year. As a colony, it should be the goal of every socialist to destroy it, just as we seek the destruction of the US, Northern Ireland, South Korea, Canada, the Phillipine state, etc.

And those same lobbyists would call you anti-semitic for proposing the destruction of the Israeli settler-colony. So it's important to remember that the word "anti-semitic" is currently undergoing a semantic decomposition, a "Boy Who Cried Wolf" effect, where the neolib and neocon reactionaries of the imperial core are rendering the word utterly meaningless through their deceptive rhetoric. one of the unfortunate side effects of this, is that actual antisemitic nazis are going to see an opportunity to take advantage of the outpouring of support for Palestinians, and use it to worm their way into mainstream political discourse. This is why we should name these posts and quote them directly, rather than vaguely gesturing that they exist, so that these accounts can get take care and removed from our platform which has never in any way supported anti-semitism.

in fact, annexing Florida to create a new state of Israel is what I mean when i refer to "the one state solution"

Give Florida back to the Seminoles and Miccosukee and other remaining First Nations.

Conflating Jews in Israel with Zionists.

Jewish control of America / protocols of the elders of zion

Please call out and report these posts. These should be grounds for automatic bans.

Actually sweaty, the USSR did create a Jewish state in Siberia, as a true alternative to Zionism and took in Jews during WW2, which still exists today as the only autonomous state in Russia. So Zionists who moved back to Israel did in fact have an alternative. Mizrahi are cool. Zionists are not cool.

When Zionist movement was founded circa 1897, Russia was host to the world's largest Jewish population. In fact, during the Russian civil war, the white army (Russian nationalists) led pograms against Jews, and killed up to 125k, mostly in UKRAINE, which surprise, surprise, is ran by Nazis today. It was the Red Bolshevik Army which had a policy of taking in or allying with the Jews, and many Jews embraced Soviet communism because of that. Moscow even hosts the world's largest Jewish museum today, the Jewish museum of tolerance.

Russia is just as much of a home to the Jews as Israel in the 20th century. No one forced the Zionists to leave for Israel and commit genocide against the Palestinians.

But! Israel is also a safe haven for Jews. This is seperable from the colonial nature of the state.

It absolutely is not. As an explicit settler-colonial project with racial supremacist justifications everywhere, you cannot distinguish some kind of "pure" Zionist just looking for safety (who? Be specific) from those who vote for the ethnic cleansing fascists and live on recently stolen land. The people who can be separated are children, those working against the Zionist entity, and possibly those who are simply propagandized and are on their way there.

I will also point out that there are other countries that are just as safe for Jewish people. This is not because those countries lack antisemitism (such as the US), but because the ethnostate in which Israeli occupiers live is not a safe place because the people they displaced and are displacing still live and still resist. You cannot be a safe occupier. Occupation is war.

Many of us had ancestors in Germany or Poland during the holocaust who did not stick around after the war. They saw Israel as their best shot at safety in the wake of the holocaust.

The implicit line here is always that this explains, even justifies occupation, disposession, genocide. Fleeing fascist genocide by settler-colonists does not mean you get to do your own. It was not acceptable then and it is not acceptable now. "Never again" includes everyone.

I know that you don't mean it like this. But what I say is still true because the ideas are incoherent. Not because you explicitly want to justify the Nakba.

Many Israelis are liberals, hoping to vote out Likud, stop supporting settlements, and negotiate palestinian statehood. These people are advocating half measures, sure, but they are not our enemies.

Yes they are, just like liberals here in the US are our enemy. Liberals are constantly our enemies, they make themselves that by supporting fascism so long as it doesn't have the name. They can be used by us, but they are the people who call the cops on their black neighbor and putting in a tip that their neighbor was at the protest last night. Liberals will sell you out and people will die by their hand if you're not more cautious than this.

The question is not whether those settlers are the enemy, it is in how they should be approached.

Conflating Jews in Israel with Zionists.

I agree that nobody should do this. I haven't seen it but it's a common enough thing that I wouldn't be surprised to see some examples.

As an aside, I've seen this conflation done by anti-Zionist Jewish liberals many times.

erasing the ambivalent position of jews within colonialism / conflating jewishness with whiteness

Eurocentrism does actually exist in the Zionist entity and Europeans invented the project and largely populated it. They have brought their biases with them and are the dominant culture there. This is the context in which I tend to see Jewish people brought up as being white - when people are talking about Israelis. That's just an instance of conflating being Jewish and being Israeli.

Blood Libel

I simply have not seen this on hexbear dot net. I would hope that it's because if it has happened, they were wreckers that are quickly banned.

calling for ethnic cleansing

This one requires citations. Show receipts.

Jewish control of America / protocols of the elders of zion

Same as above.

I’m going to quibble with your claim that Israel is a safe haven for Jews. This attack should have ended this claim forever. There is no way Jewish people are safer in Israel than they would be in the us, Canada, the uk, France, Germany, etc.

Secondly, why do Jews need a homeland to be safe? No other group that has been attacked through history ever has been supported in creating an ethnostate in order to protect them. Where is the demand for Roma to have a state to protect that from racism in Europe? Where are the calls to give the descendants of enslaved Africans to be given a state they can control in order to be protected?

Antisemitism is a real problem, and as leftists we must always call it out just as we do for any other form of oppression. I will continue to my best at this as well, and pretty much agree with the specific arguments you make in the rest of your post

To be Jewish is fine.

To be a Zionist is to be a fascist of the same order as those that pursued Lebensraum and Manifest Destiny. They are villains and should never feel safe wherever they go.

P.S.

It's a pretty easy distinction to make in that you (probably) don't choose to be Jewish but you do choose to be a Zionist. A Jewish Zionist is awful not because of their being Jewish but because of their goals of ethnic cleansing and militaristic expansionism under the guise of "reclaiming a historic/prophesized homeland"; a non-Jewish Zionist is a Fascist using religion/past persecution/etc. to launder their bloodlust.

"Antisemite" is basically another word for "whataboutism". Also actual anti-semites get the too

And since the Apartheid in South Africa ended 30 years ago, accusing anyone critical of apartheid rule of being a communist sympathizer grew out of fashion, so there was an "urgent" need to find a new label

say the line, bart

Semi-joking aside, I know where to not point the finger at. On the contrary also, it's the people who make this accusation who themselves let it slip. The irony isn't lost when the likes of Miko Peled and Ronnie Kasrils, along with groups such as SAJFP, JVP and B'tselem consistently get pelted with the "antisemite" accusations on the regular.

I'm just here to say the Romanov children deserved it

how the fuck is Israel "a save place for jews" ... what .. did i miss the bronx calling a intifada or London needing a Iron Dome .... ?

Ethnostates are always bad, Israel would still be bad if it were in Florida.

Israel is also a safe haven for Jews

Maybe some specific strands of Jewish people. As long as they are white or European or American or however you wanna categorise them. Ethiopian jews are ghettoised and forcibly sterilised.