this post was submitted on 01 Apr 2025
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The Jewish People Policy Institute Israel Index survey found that 8 out of 10 Jewish Israelis agreed with Trump's proposal of expelling Palestinians from Gaza.

Forty-three percent of all Israelis said that the expulsion plan was "practical" and should be implemented, while 30 percent said the plan was "desirable" but not practical.

A minority of 13 percent - made of up 54 percent of Palestinian respondents and just three percent of Jewish Israelis - described the Trump plan as "immoral".

MBFC

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[–] PunkRockSportsFan@fanaticus.social 48 points 2 days ago (4 children)

Religion is just a complicated excuse for violence

[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 39 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Zionism is a political ideology, not religious. In fact it's completely opposed to judaism as it has existed for thousands of years. It's goals are explicitly political (eg. genocide and ethnic cleansing) without any relation to the actual religion of judaism. For this reason it's anti-semitic to claim that zionism is a jewish or religious ideology.

The only religion here is fascism - the worship of the state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_religion

[–] PunkRockSportsFan@fanaticus.social 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Yeah but when you walk around Israel it’s not a Zionist section and a non Zionist section.

It’s a Jewish area and a Muslim area.

The Muslim area is over policed, a ghetto

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 21 points 2 days ago (1 children)

No? It's a Jewish area and a Palestinian area. Palestinian Christians aren't spared by Israel.

[–] PunkRockSportsFan@fanaticus.social 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

I’m taking about Jerusalem and East Jerusalem specifically

Edit: if you have ever visited Jerusalem it’s an interesting place.

Jews are top tier there. They can enjoy luxury shopping and the protection of the IDF. Everyone must follow their customs while in Israel. Kosher food, Shabbat rules, etc.

Hasidic Jews are NOT REQUIRED to be in the IDF. This is the only exemption from military service for any ethnic group in Israel.

They are also paid from tax dollars just to live there and repopulate the country with Jewish babies.

(This is not a made up story. This is the entire principle of “birthright” trips where zionist casino owning billionaires send American Jewish college students to Israel on an all expenses paid trip to their “birthright” land.

The idea is to make many of those young students marry and stay in Israel.

It’s super fucked up.

I was offered this trip but was disqualified when I asked about Palestinian birthrights.

I have visited on my own since then and this is where my accounts come from. )

Christians are welcome in jerusalem as well. There are many churches all celebrating Jesus and just stations of the cross. They are under the protection of the IDF

But if you ramble through the old city long enough you may end up in East Jerusalem.

This is the Arab / Muslim area. The buildings are dilapidated and the IDF oppresses the people there. These people are treated the way American police treat black people.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 12 points 2 days ago

This is the Arab / Muslim area.

Yeah this is what I'm talking about. Christians live in these areas too, making up 5% of the population of East Jerusalem.

[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago

The Jewish Supremacy inherent to Zionism goes back to race science, similar to White Supremacy. It comes from perceived ethnic superiority, abusing the religion to it's own ends. Zionism goes against the teachings of Judaism, and Jewish opposition to zionism is as old as Zionism itself. The supremacy over and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in fundamental to zionism, it's certainly like early America in many ways

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 5 points 2 days ago (18 children)

Dude don't blame this on religion. This is Zionism and fascism, both of which are post-Enlightenment Western inventions through and through.

[–] Nougat@fedia.io 12 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Religion is excellent cover for it, though.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

No? Religion can both support and oppose fascism, but looking at Hitler and Mussolini and thinking "religion did this" is frankly ahistorical and is nothing but a way for atheists to feel better about themselves.

[–] Nougat@fedia.io 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You've reversed the order, and that doesn't work.

"Religion enables violence" is not the same as "All violence is caused by religion."

But since you're brought up Hitler.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

"Religion enables violence" is not the same as "All violence is caused by religion."

Yes, and I'm saying that religion had very little to do with Hitler's inherently race-based ideology. Hell, the Nazis defined Jews via their ancestry, not their religious observance. What did religion have to do with the Generalplan Ost or the Aryan race?

[–] Nougat@fedia.io 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Aryan race stuff, as exemplified in 19th and 20th century racial superiority, actually starts with lingustics.

Yes, and I'm saying that religion had very little to do with Hitler's inherently race-based ideology.

Okay? You're the only one talking about that, and nobody is disagreeing with you. Although I might add that Hitler and his ilk were kind of famously into the occult. Perhaps not a religion, but certainly religious.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Let me rephrase: Yes, and I'm saying that religion had very little to do with Hitler's inherently race-based ideology, even as a cover. Nazis were religious to the extent that everyone at the time was religious, but religion was just another thing they pandered to and didn't have a big role to play in their activities except insofar as all non-Nazi ideologies—religious or not—were targets of extermination.

[–] Nougat@fedia.io -1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Yes, and I'm saying that religion had very little to do with Hitler's inherently race-based ideology, even as a cover.

Religion still does enable violence. Just because you're citing a specific example where it arguably did not does not falsify that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement#Militancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war

And let's not forget the Aztecs, whose religion had them subjugating their nearby enemies, capturing their people, and sacrificing them to satisfy their deities. The Aztecs were so horrible that when the Europeans showed up and kind of rolled over them, those previously subjugated city-states went fucking ham on the Aztecs, completely destroying them. And the Europeans were all "Dude, that's harsh."

There are certainly also plenty of non-religious cases of violence throughout history, of course, for good and bad reasons. "Because a deity 'said so'" is never a good reason.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Religion still does enable violence. Just because you're citing a specific example where it arguably did not does not falsify that.

I thought I made it pretty clear I talking specifically about fascism and its offshoots like Zionism, Nazism and MAGA.

[–] Nougat@fedia.io 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Zionism is complicated, because "Jewish" can be a religion, nationality, culture, or ethnicity/race, or any combination of the above, depending on who is using the term and in what context.

MAGA is absolutely strongly correlated with evangelical Christianity in the US.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 4 points 2 days ago

Zionism is complicated, because "Jewish" can be a religion, nationality, culture, or ethnicity/race, or any combination of the above, depending on who is using the term and in what context.

"Jewish" can be any of those things, but Zionism pretty explicitly treats Jews as an ethnicity/nationality. This is why even liberal/atheist Jews are considered Jews by Zionists.

MAGA is absolutely strongly correlated with evangelical Christianity in the US.

Yes, but did that materially contribute to their fascist rhetoric or actions? From what I know their rhetoric is mostly race and nationality-based, which is why they're going after immigrants and non-whites rather than atheists and other sects of Christianity. In fact while MAGA is correlated with evangelical Christianity it doesn't exactly reject atheists, with 27% of voters not affiliated with any religious group being Republican..

[–] RainbowHedgehog@50501.chat 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Adding to this, PunkRockSportsFan ignores that religion has been used to end violence. Christianity was a huge part in the US abolitionist movement.

[–] Auntievenim@lemmy.world 8 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I mean you can't play that card when the entirety of slavery was justified by that same Christianity up until the point that a civil war ended the argument. Again, religion had nothing to do with it besides giving conviction to anyone based on what they feel, in their head, god wants. Abolitionists were religious just like every other person in america in 1880, and Abolitionists were not the majority.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I mean you can't play that card when the entirety of slavery was justified by that same Christianity up until the point that a civil war ended the argument.

Uh... No? Slavers made up race to justify slavery specifically because they couldn't use Christianity to justify it anymore.

[–] Auntievenim@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

Ah okay so just up to that point lmao

[–] Maeve@kbin.earth 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Ever heard of the Quakers? Quite a few * other sects.

[–] Auntievenim@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

Were they the ones for abolition? I always associate them more with the revolution than the civil war but I could be mixing them up with the whigs

[–] forrgott@lemm.ee 7 points 2 days ago (2 children)

How many wars have been fought because of religion? Religions very commonly use fear as a method of control (Christians even invented hell just for that purpose). This makes them unfortunately well suited for fascist takeover.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 4 points 2 days ago (7 children)

The shit? The pioneers of fascism—Hitler and Mussolini—appealed to the Enlightenment-era ideologies of race and nationalism a lot more than they appealed to religion, and Ben Gurion was an atheist. Then in modern Israel you have liberal Jews and ultraorthodox Jews, who are both equally supportive of the genocide of Palestinians for Lebensraum (though liberal Jews are more likely to prioritize getting the hostages back). MAGA is also built on nationalism, race ideology and a notion of a "great America", with religion only taking an auxiliary role. Again, fascism and Zionism were invented in and keep being practiced by the least religious region in the world; don't make this the fault of religion because it's quite obviously not. Religion isn't the cause of everything you don't like. Y'all invented this shit so own it.

[–] TheTechnician27@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

Lmao what? The Nazi Party publicly and loudly identified with religion and persecuted and purged the Jews who had been treated awfully by Christians in Europe for centuries. Sure Hitler wanted to see the end of Christianity, but he was quite religious himself per the Goebbels Diaries: "The Führer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race. This can be seen in the similarity of their religious rites. Both (Judaism and Christianity) have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end they will be destroyed." So privately Hitler was religious, and publicly the Nazis were religious, and one of the most sickening, widespread, and prominent atrocities they committed was the persecution and genocide of a religious minority.

[–] GreyAlien@lemm.ee 5 points 2 days ago

I would argue that even though they identified a bit with Christianity, they weren’t religious. The nazis used lots of christian symbolisms and rhetorics due to cultural heritage as a way of garnering support.

But, stating that nazis were religious as in they adopted clear doctrines and rituals is fallacious, their philosophical beliefs were more akin to pantheism than anything else.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 4 points 2 days ago

The Nazi Party publicly and loudly identified with religion

Okay and? Did you want them to be outspoken atheists in 1920s Germany?

Most historians argue he was prepared to delay conflicts for political reasons and that his intentions were to eventually eliminate Christianity in Germany, or at least reform it to suit a Nazi outlook.

and persecuted and purged the Jews who had been treated awfully by Christians in Europe for centuries.

Okay and? Antisemitism was already a thing independent of the Christianity that created it. The Nazis also went after leftists, (forgot to complete that sentence so edit:) Romas, Catholics and Slavs, among others.

"The Führer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race. This can be seen in the similarity of their religious rites. Both (Judaism and Christianity) have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end they will be destroyed." So privately Hitler was religious, and publicly the Nazis were religious,

Yeah why do you want them to be atheists? Nearly everyone was religious back then, so obviously they were going to be religious too. And in the first place, Hitler repeatedly challenged orthodox religious beliefs in his time, so if anything to him Christianity was a pain in the ass that he needed to deal with and not a part of his ideology. He also persecuted non-Nazi Christians almost as soon as they took power.

and one of the most sickening, widespread, and prominent atrocities they committed was the persecution and genocide of a religious minority.

See above.

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[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 days ago

How many wars have been fought for a state? Every single one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_religion

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[–] Punchshark@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago

And pedophilia! Don't forget about all the Pedophiles!

I'd like to say that so are zombie films and media.

zombies have become an excuse to dehumanize and glorify justifiable violence against humans at this point.