this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2025
141 points (99.3% liked)

Europe

6541 readers
694 users here now

News and information from Europe 🇪🇺

(Current banner: La Mancha, Spain. Feel free to post submissions for banner images.)

Rules (2024-08-30)

  1. This is an English-language community. Comments should be in English. Posts can link to non-English news sources when providing a full-text translation in the post description. Automated translations are fine, as long as they don't overly distort the content.
  2. No links to misinformation or commercial advertising. When you post outdated/historic articles, add the year of publication to the post title. Infographics must include a source and a year of creation; if possible, also provide a link to the source.
  3. Be kind to each other, and argue in good faith. Don't post direct insults nor disrespectful and condescending comments. Don't troll nor incite hatred. Don't look for novel argumentation strategies at Wikipedia's List of fallacies.
  4. No bigotry, sexism, racism, antisemitism, islamophobia, dehumanization of minorities, or glorification of National Socialism. We follow German law; don't question the statehood of Israel.
  5. Be the signal, not the noise: Strive to post insightful comments. Add "/s" when you're being sarcastic (and don't use it to break rule no. 3).
  6. If you link to paywalled information, please provide also a link to a freely available archived version. Alternatively, try to find a different source.
  7. Light-hearted content, memes, and posts about your European everyday belong in !yurop@lemm.ee. (They're cool, you should subscribe there too!)
  8. Don't evade bans. If we notice ban evasion, that will result in a permanent ban for all the accounts we can associate with you.
  9. No posts linking to speculative reporting about ongoing events with unclear backgrounds. Please wait at least 12 hours. (E.g., do not post breathless reporting on an ongoing terror attack.)
  10. Always provide context with posts: Don't post uncontextualized images or videos, and don't start discussions without giving some context first.

(This list may get expanded as necessary.)

Posts that link to the following sources will be removed

Unless they're the only sources, please also avoid The Sun, Daily Mail, any "thinktank" type organization, and non-Lemmy social media. Don't link to Twitter directly, instead use xcancel.com. For Reddit, use old:reddit:com

(Lists may get expanded as necessary.)

Ban lengths, etc.

We will use some leeway to decide whether to remove a comment.

If need be, there are also bans: 3 days for lighter offenses, 7 or 14 days for bigger offenses, and permanent bans for people who don't show any willingness to participate productively. If we think the ban reason is obvious, we may not specifically write to you.

If you want to protest a removal or ban, feel free to write privately to the primary mod account @EuroMod@feddit.org

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Archived

China's Foreign Minister Wang Yi reportedly told the EU's top diplomat Kaja Kallas on July 3 that the country cannot afford for Russia to lose the war in Ukraine amid fears the U.S. would shift focus towards Beijing, the South China Morning Post (SCMP) reported, citing sources familiar with the conversation.

As the war in Ukraine drags on, Wang's reported comments suggest that Russia's war in Ukraine may serve China's strategic needs as focus is deviated away from Beijing's mounting preparation to launch its own possible invasion into Taiwan.

[...]

China has been a key ally to Russia during its full-scale war, helping Moscow evade Western sanctions and becoming the leading source of dual-use goods fueling the Russian defense industry.

[...]

The frankness of Wang's reported admission was greeted with surprise by EU official, according to Hong Kong-based SCMP, amid China's past public statements in favor of a peace deal. Two sources familiar with the meeting told SCMP that they believed Wang was providing Kallas with a lesson in realpolitik during the four-hour encounter.

Wang on July 3 again reportedly rejected Western accusations that it was providing funding and weaponry to support Moscow's war effort in Ukraine.

President Volodymyr Zelensky has repeatedly accused Beijing of providing weaponry to Moscow. On May 29, Zelensky said that China had stopped selling drones to Ukraine and Western countries while continuing to supply them to Russia.

[...]

top 47 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] plyth@feddit.org -1 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (1 children)

Since people don't read my long comment: The bold part is only suggested by the author and was never said by the minister.

comments suggest ... Beijing’s mounting preparation to launch its own possible invasion into Taiwan.

The Chinese minister fears a US war with China instead.

[–] randomname@scribe.disroot.org 3 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

When Chinese leader Xi Jinping visited Russia in May 2025 to celebrate victory day in Moscow, Chinese state-controlled media outlet South China Morning Post reported that China's Xi Jinping kicked off his state visit by thanking Moscow for supporting Taiwan’s reunification with mainland China.

In a signed article in Russia’s state-run Rossiyskaya Gazeta newspaper ... [Xi Jinping wrote that Taiwan's] unification [with China] must be upheld as part of the post-war international order ... Celebrating the “enduring friendship” between Moscow and Beijing, he said the two countries had supported each other since World War II ...

The war in Ukraine and China's aggression against Taiwan are apparently closely linked, at least from China's point of view. There may or may not be a threat of a U.S.-China war, but here this is just a red herring.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

They are linked, but differently. Without Taiwan, China can be locked into a naval blockade. China doesn't fully become a pole in a multipolar world without Taiwan. But they don't have to conquer it. Technological progression will make the Taiwanese want to join China. Only a war could prevent this which means that China will not launch an invasion.

[–] randomname@scribe.disroot.org 1 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Technological progression will make the Taiwanese want to join China. Only a war could prevent this ...

Do yourself a favour and stay away from wherever you get such stuff.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

What's the counter argument? What will prevent China from leading in all key technologies in 10 or 20 years?

[–] jafffacakelemmy@mander.xyz 33 points 1 day ago (1 children)

If Russia is successful in Ukraine, that makes it more likely that in future China will be able to carry out the same trick in Taiwan.

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago

It's not only that, it's also that USA is doing the competition with China the rough way.

China is mostly building up peaceful (of the cutthroat kind, but still) economic influence, USA is mostly not countering that with the same, but just disrupting possible logistical projects beneficial to China with wars.

So they'd want, I think, to have USA at least keep applying force where it already does, allowing China to keep growing. They don't want to do military solutions, their military is not that experienced and it's not necessary when economically time is working in their favor.

Putin is basically mocking (or imitating) the US, it's his inferiority complex - he thinks Russia should be perceived as some superpower of the kind of the US, and the same things to be "allowed" to it, so he does what he sees as the same things that US does. The results are secondary. While the US establishment and current, eh, leadership in turn too have an inferiority complex - they think today's US should be as "great" or at least "reliable" in perception as the US of 1960s, except they forgot the context and why even US of 1960s needed to be what it was. The results, in foreign policy, are mostly secondary too to that, I think.

IMHO it's because of the stagnation of the elites. The more involved wide population is into decisions, - even USSR had something reminiscing meritocracy in ministries and in industries and in the military, - the better is the quality of the whole state mechanism with its culture and elites. While the more narrow and closed it is, the more similar it is to a Hearts of Iron game.

[–] Guadin@k.fe.derate.me 37 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Lol, where Russia used to be the one using proxywars to fight the west. It's now fighting said proxy war. So much for big old Putin's new strong sovjet union.

[–] Saleh@feddit.org 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I recommend people to listen to John Mearsheimer. He explains it very well. Basically there is three focal points in global geopolitics from the US perspective.

Eastern Europe, because there is Russia close to NATO. The Persian gulf, because there is the most Oil and Gas and South-East Asia, because there is China emerging as the main global competitor to US hegemony.

Because the US started to develop their own Oil and Gas exploitation, and China is ever growing, since Obama the goal is to shift the focus from the Middle East to South-East Asia. Now Russia bogged down US commitment in Eastern Europe and Israel keeps bogging down the US in the Middle East, ideally wanting to drag the US into a full scale war against Iran.

This situation is perfect for China as the US keeps its military resources away from where they actually need them for their geostrategy.

Subsequently China does not want Russia to win in Ukraine either. They want the US to remain involved. This is also why a different approach to China by the EU could be the best way forward for peace in Ukraine. If the EU dislodges itself from the US hegemony and stops involving itself in the Middle East alongside the US, China could see a greater benefit in ending the war in Ukraine. Chin, Russia and Iran do not as much form an alliance because of being great friends. They share an alliance because they all have the same opponent, the US and its client states.

[–] Maalus@lemmy.world -1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

So "if Europe caves to the bully, joins the side that is actively supporting its enemy that invaded a sovereign country, maybe China will see a benefit and do something countrary to their interest and work towards peace in Ukraine". Have you even thought how your post sounds? If it is beneficial to keep the war in Ukraine going, why would they "switch sides"? The US would still be "bogged down" in Ukraine even if the EU started better relations with China. So either we would totally need to cut off Ukraine (in which case Russia wins) or China would magically do something that's completely stupid from their POV.

[–] Saleh@feddit.org 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

China benefits from the Ukraine war because it weakens the US. If the EU was to dislodge itself from the US that would be a far greater benefit for China. Also China has its own conflicts with Russia in central Asia.

China is not the one "bullying" the EU here. The EU is being bullied by the US and Russia. Trump is already showing that the US is not really interested in Ukraine as much, unless it gets its money back in resources. What China doesn't want is the US and Russia joining sides and the EU tagging along as it lacks proper independent foreign policy. China also doesn't want Russia to win as this would strengthen Russia militarily and embolden it in Central Asia as well as compel countries in Africa to seek more relationships with Russia than with China.

I think you perceive the countries opposed to US hegemony as far more monolithic as you are used to the EU countries practically always falling in line with the demands of Washington. But the relationships between the countries outside that bloc are far more ambiguous.

[–] Maalus@lemmy.world -1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

"EU dislodging itself" would be better, but US being bogged down in Ukraine would still be good. So why would they help Ukraine in that case? Or are you suggesting we abandon Ukraine?

China is absolutely bullying the EU. Otherwise they wouldn't be supporting the greatest threat to the EU.

[–] Saleh@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It is a transaction. If China exerts pressure on Russia to end the war it gets better relations with the EU and the EU limiting its military involvement with the US in return.

This also wouldn't be abandoning Ukraine. As it stands Ukraine is being used to do the attrition of the Russian military for the West. Meanwhile the US already lays claim to Ukraines natural resources and the EU countries will probably follow suit. The longer the war goes, the less basis will be left for Ukraine to maintain sovereignty. If the war continues another year or two, Ukraine will either become a puppet of Russia, or a puppet of the US, with the EU asking to be allowed to play the strings every now and then.

Or alternatively the EU would need to go to all out war against Russia, with all the consequences of it. That might save Ukraine relatively speaking, or it might annihilate Ukraine completely as it will be the main battlefield.

The current status quo represents a slow abandoning of Ukraine.

[–] Maalus@lemmy.world -1 points 1 day ago

So "abandon Ukraine and your other long term allies in favour of China, for no reason", got it.

[–] rumimevlevi@lemmings.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Europe support the biggest bullies israel and the usa. China and russia are also bullies. We need to be consistant

[–] Maalus@lemmy.world -2 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] rumimevlevi@lemmings.world 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Whataboutism would be deflecting from Russian and China bullying. I am just being consistant and exposing you hypocrites

[–] Maalus@lemmy.world -2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Nope, you are "just" whatabouting.

[–] rumimevlevi@lemmings.world 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

No, i am being consistent and exposing your hypocrisy

[–] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 10 points 1 day ago (3 children)

China tells EU

???

Wrong approach LOL

China [...] does not want to see Russia lose its war in Ukraine

China could simply tell Russia to fuck off of Ukraine. Case closed.

[–] wizzor@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 day ago

As I understood, their interest is actually prolonging the war, as that will keep US attention divided.

[–] the_wiz@feddit.org 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

China could simply tell Russia to fuck off of Ukraine. Case closed.

Or send troops and weapons to finish the war in russias favor if they REALLY wanted to see russia win.

[–] MaggiWuerze@feddit.org 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

That's the nuance. They "don't want to see them lose" doesn't mean they need to win, China probably just likes the destabilizing effect it has on the area. So they prop them up just enough to keep them going.

[–] the_wiz@feddit.org 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yeah, i am pretty sure China is playing the same "game" the US (or the collective west) is playing since the start of the war: Just send in enough support to keep it going and let the geopolitical adversaries tire themself out. Its very much amoralistic but has a surprisingly relateable logic behind it

[–] MaggiWuerze@feddit.org 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Although the west certainly could do more to enable a Ukrainian victory, I don't see their motivation as being the same as Chinas.

[–] the_wiz@feddit.org 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Why not? Its all about the position on the geostrategic playing field... get a better position without risk to lose it all.

[–] MaggiWuerze@feddit.org 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Because the west has nothing but cost to gain from drawing this out any more. Russias military has already been demolished, reduced to using drones and rockets. At this point it would make more sense to end this with a win and strenghten Ukraine against further russian aggression. It would still allow for increased military spending, and all the other stuff they want to do.

[–] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 1 points 11 hours ago

Russias military has already been demolished

You may want to check your sources of information.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

country cannot afford for Russia to lose the war in Ukraine amid fears the U.S. would shift focus towards Beijing,

How will the US remain the hegemon but with a war against China?

[–] Melchior@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)
[–] Anonymaus@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

A lot of things can happen in 75 years, so the outcome shown here might not even come to fruition

[–] Melchior@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Obviously, but even within the next 25years according to this forecast China goes from having 4.1x the US population to 3.3x. In 50 years it would be 2.3x. Basically if this is somewhat right, then it is a possible strategy to contain China dimplomaticly and weaken its economy without going to war. As the odds improve for the US over time.

[–] Anonymaus@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago

I guess we will just have to wait and see

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The US will lose hegemony during the next ten years if nothing changes. Going from 4.1x to 3.3x in 25 years won't be relevant for that transition.

This also assumes that China cannot change their child policy once more.

Thus, a big war is coming.

[–] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

No idea what that means, but they do not remain anything anyway.

[–] sirico@feddit.uk 5 points 1 day ago

Noted... anyway

[–] atro_city@fedia.io 5 points 1 day ago

And Europe meanwhile can't do shit because, in all our capitalististic fervour, we made ourselves critically dependent on China. Smaht.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

This article is slightly misleading if compared with the SCMP article which has big implications on understanding the global power dynamics. Draw your own conclusions.

SCMP:

Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi told the European Union’s top diplomat on Wednesday that Beijing does not want to see a Russian loss in Ukraine because it fears the United States would then shift its whole focus to Beijing, according to several people familiar with the exchange.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3316875/china-tells-eu-it-cannot-afford-russian-loss-ukraine-war-sources-say

https://web.archive.org/web/20250704053134/https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3316875/china-tells-eu-it-cannot-afford-russian-loss-ukraine-war-sources-say

vs

As the war in Ukraine drags on, Wang’s reported comments suggest that Russia’s war in Ukraine may serve China’s strategic needs as focus is deviated away from Beijing’s mounting preparation to launch its own possible invasion into Taiwan.

It's subtle, but the attack on Taiwan is an interpretation. The minister means something else.

If the economic development continues, Taiwan will want to join China. Thus the focus of the US is interpreted differently by China, more like the focus Iraq or Afghanistan received.

SCMP:

During a marathon four-hour debate on a wide range of geopolitical and commercial grievances, Wang was said to have given Kallas – the former Estonian prime minister who only late last year took up her role as the bloc’s de facto foreign affairs chief – several “history lessons and lectures”.

Some EU officials felt he was giving her a lesson in realpolitik, part of which focused on Beijing’s belief that Washington will soon turn its full attention eastward, two officials said. One interpretation of Wang’s statement in Brussels is that while China did not ask for the war, its prolongation may suit Beijing’s strategic needs, so long as the US remains engaged in Ukraine.

vs

that they believed Wang was providing Kallas with a lesson in realpolitik during the four-hour encounter.

No mentioning of the “history lessons and lectures”, which is a friendlier way of saying that he has referenced past behavior that suggest that the EU is in the wrong.

There seems to be ignorance about what is going to happen even right at the top of the EU. The Chinese minister is calling bullshit. Yet Kallas must have already known better.

[–] Hotznplotzn@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

@plyth@feddit.org

Your remarks regarding "lessons in realpolitik" and the alleged U.S. policy and the rest is all mentioned in the linked article. Just read it.

But your comment:

If the economic development continues, Taiwan will want to join China.

is pure Chinese propaganda as you know. Taiwan has said the exact opposite multiple times.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 3 points 1 day ago

I have checked again. They are not. Could you please quote where the history lessons are mentioned or the other missing parts that I have pointed out?

is pure Chinese propaganda as you know.

It is not, and you know it. The US calculate that by 2027 China can be technologically leading not only in some but all areas. What does it tell you about global economics in 2035? Who is going to build the phone that everybody wants?

Taiwan has said the exact opposite multiple times.

How is that convincing? Do you know how fragile public opinion is? If China has prettier stuff in 2035, Taiwan will switch sides. China knows and just has to make sure that the US doesn't destroy them before.