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First they came for the incest/rape games, which most people somewhat agree with (although the principle is still wrong) Next up is all nsfw games. After that, it'll be mainstream and indie games altogether. This never stops with just one "victory" for these groups.
It’s going to come down to anything with even a whisper of LGBTQ+/minority/disability/etc representation, just like with books.
They start with the “egregious” content (not that it’s necessarily right to remove that either), then narrow it down until it shapes up into hegemonic conformity and systemic oppression via media (there’s a term for it, kind of like stochastic violence but not quite that I can’t remember atm).
Exactly this. It is so transparent that the goal is to target minorities and lgbtq+ folk. After that, who knows. “Unchristian” games probably.
it doesn't even stop there - it will be used to punish people who do not exactly like it's expected, with the mere accusation of playing/reading/watching/thinking something "unchristian" as reason.
BDSM games have been targeted as well for "sexual violence". Only straight, vanilla PiV missionary for the express purposes of having children within the confines of marriage where nobody is enjoying it porn will be left.
There are specific games in steam's case I'm very ok with getting removed, but at the same time its very fucked up that we're in a situation where the world is beholden to payment processors. Ideally this would be a case where they go directly to Valve and say "hey we think you should take a look at your content policy and at these specific games" and Valve makes the call from there on where they want to draw the line.
Im curious what games and type of content they contain you think should be removed from steam. Ive seen a few cartoon pornish type of things pop up before but didnt appear outwardly outlandish. Having never intentionally sought out this content Im curious is there a dark depraved section of the steam store Ive never seen before?
mention of sexual assault
not OP, but for example the first game collective shout went after a few months ago ("no mercy") was explicitly a game about raping women to make them obedient. this is bad not because its NSFW, it’s bad because it’s rape apologia, and a misogynistic hate game.to me, it’s not much different than "chad vs the gay nazis", another hate game (with a pretty self-explanatory name) that was released around the same time and was also quickly delisted.
I wouldn’t be surprised if other games that just got delisted were as bad as no mercy. but also, the blanket banning of anything NSFW (or even just kinky) sets a terrible precedent.
The main stuff I saw removed was related to incest and rape, not in a "it contains it" way. Somehow Corruption of Champions 2 escaped the ban hammer which makes me think those games probably took things pretty far, or were basically built to simulate assaulting people.
For reference, CoC2 is uh.... Well when you lose in combat the enemy fucks you, and vice versa. It's like a lot of fetish stuff too. So not that I know exactly what's in the games, but I feel like you have to really be trying to outdo CoC2.
Edit: I'm not criticizing CoC2 btw, it's fine. Its... I don't wanna say tasteful but non con is like one of 90 things you can or cannot opt into. Idk how to put it. It's an actual game that happens to have non con content I guess is what I mean.
In childhood and teenage years I played a lot of games like Carmageddon, Postal, Grand Theft Auto. In first two games slaughtering innocent people en masse is part of gameplay loop. Yet I somehow didn't grow up to be maniac, and mostly didn't even hurt anyone physically in my whole life. It's games, fiction, you're not supposed to take any of that seriously or to project it onto your real life.
I'm aware, I promise you that, I'm not saying games make you violent or awful. That argument has been annoying me to hell and back my whole life. To be honest I've not heard the argument for video games made for porn games before, but yeah, fair. So yeah. I don't like those specific rape/incest games, they're kinda yuck to me, but you do you.
Out of curiosity do you think there should be a line? Where would it be? Maybe like only explicitly illegal content is ever removed? (I wanna say thats how ao3 works) Or is steam having final say your preference? What if steam decided to make changes on its own?
If I had my way, I'd just have filters and tags, and let steam manage their storefront. I might disagree on how they do it, but that's up to them(or it should be). It just feels weird and loopholey that a payment processor is making this sort of overarching decision.
The only line is depictions involving real people without their consent. A flexible line is a exploitable one.
It is very clear that MasterVisa will use any and all excuses to eliminate queerness from existence, and my perverse games will be the excuse.
For me the line would be fictional-vs-non-fictional. So if a game contains photos or videos of actual people being hurt or abused IRL, that is illegal. But anything fictional is fine. For shocking/kinky stuff, there might be some special tags, and tag-based extra warnings like "this game contains scenes of ..., do you want to open the page?". So when you find and open any game with certain tag you get a warning corresponding to this tag. After confirmation it might remember your consent and enable some flags in the options to not bother you next time. But you can go into the options any moment and hide it all again if you decide you don't want to see this kind of stuff in future. Also, before you enable/consent to this content, it probably shouldn't be randomly recommended to you.
So I think that's all pretty fair, of course including the fact that it should all be legal too.
Does the paradox of tolerance concern you at all? The idea that if you let shitty people have a say they'll eventually use the bit of tolerance you give them as a tool to take away tolerance of others.
Basically, in theory if you let the nazis have a political party they might win and ban all the other parties, so to keep it fair arguably you should ban them first.
Now applying that to games that are pretty obviously hate games, like the ones the other commenter mentioned, the raping women into obedience game, or a game where you kill a bunch of gay people, the implication is that those games should be banned.
I kinda just wanted your thoughts on the concept. Like for example a game where you play as a school shooter. All good?
Sorry if this is a little philosophical, I just honestly wonder where the line should be for the least amount of harm.
I personally feel the correct way to deal with this in current society is to counter propaganda takes instead of trying to silence them. But even better would be to move away from nation-states altogether to more decentralized forms of societies. Compared to even 100 years ago, nowadays we have a lot of technology that makes off-the-grid living much more accessible: efficient solars, modular building, biotoilets, 3d printing, starlinks, etc. The biggest thing that still requires a lot of infrastructure and governing is healthcare imo.
Those are not necessarily hate games, but they can be. Rape can be a crime and it can be a kink. And it's a very popular kink among women themselves. There are whole genres of consensual noncon porn, where people roleplay rape for fun. Big part of BDSM is also all about enjoying those twisted power dynamics. Yet something like this can definitely be a hate game as well done by someone having strong feeling of hatred towards certain groups of people: be it women, gay, trans, black, etc. I'm not sure I've ever played actual games like that, and I also would expect them to be low-quality slop, but either way, if you think someone's trying to push some hateful propaganda through the game, you're free to call them out, leave negative review, write a post or record a video criticizing it.
I gotcha, I get it being a kink, and you have a fair point in that public feedback helps call out the sort of things that aren't made in good faith. I think I still like the idea of obvious hate games being taken down, but its always going to be somewhat subjective, so its hard to enforce that kind of thing without screwing over games that don't deserve it.
Definitely not something payment processors should be in charge of lmao
Thanks for talking with me about this :)
What kills me is in most cases you have to pay for the game, then you have to download the game, then install it and finally play it. It's not.like the game is going to one day pop into your computer and then force you to play it.
Bottom line. If the game bothers ornoffends you just move on.
So what do I, a common shlub, do to resist this? Boycott Steam and itch.io until they reinstate the games?
Steam and Itch are both victims in this matter, their hands are tied. If the payment processors simply refuse to process any payments unless they comply, there's no point in trying to put pressure on them. I'm pretty sure they were happy to take people's money for these games and still would be, if they could so while saving face.
So what useful action can I take to push back against this censorship?
This is gonna be down vote central but use crypto to pay for games whatever that looks like.
Once they get rid of the sex they'll come for the violence.
Steam is gonna look mighty empty if every game with violence is removed tho.
They're not going to ban 90% of video games, not everything is a slippery slope
They’ve been trying to ban violent video games for several decades, you knob. They absolutely will come for them.
And it won't happen because companies won't allow them to ban a trillion dollar industry, you knob. Banning adult games isn't remotely comparable. Most video games rely on violence and it's too big of an industry to fail, adult games have a tiny following and were an easy target.
Isnt itch.io only indie games?
Yes, but.
Everyone should read the open letter that's linked in the itch statement, to have a fully informed opinion.
There definitely is a line. Everyone can choose were they draw it. You don't have to draw it in a way where you end up defending things that are kinda messed up.
There is definitely a hill worth fighting on in that area. I don't think it's this exact one.
My line is these payment processors being judge, jury and executioner about what material they deem valid. So I am fundamentally opposed.
I agree, but they aren't.
I am specifically saying this, because my democratic country has laws that would also cover these things the letter mentions and would also deem them wrong. The people normally charged with upholding that law, are just dumb, "not from the internet" and overworked with other stuff.
Please check what laws your country has around the topic of glorification of crime and violence.
We also don't know what the payment processors told itch and steam.
Itch and steam are doing what they are doing as a blanket move, to create a situation where they can stay in business for now and deal with the problem at all.
My bet would be that they "allowed nsfw stuff", turned a blind eye, and now suddenly noticed they actually have a really big legal problem, with actual laws and the fact that it was an NGO and not an official legal institution that started this, was dumb luck and now they mostly need time and cover their own arse.
And I fully support the opinion that it shouldn't be the payment processors forcing these sorts of things. But reality is messy and if this was the path of least resistance to get something done, such is life.
If GTA V is allowed, I’m pretty certain most of what we’ve seen from NSFW games is as well. Regardless, a payment company should not be acting as judge for such things, just as media companies should not act as judge on copyright infringement on YouTube.
I feel like there is nuance that is really getting lost on some people and that is the way that people engage with these games. Let me try to explain: I like playing NSFW games - even with tags like Rape, Corruption or the occasional Incest. Without trying to go into too much detail, it's simply erotic to me in the correct context.
Now, do I know that these topics are incredibly taboo and/or offensive in real life? Yes, of course. I keep these things private and never put them out in real life. I would rather noone knows about what I do privately in my own time at my own PC. The way I see it, I simply paid an artist to draw something erotic and write a good story and/or program some gameplay attached to it. And once I stop engaging with the videogame, I also do not have any desire to recreate anything in real life. The same way that I don't go around killing people after playing GTA, I also don't go around assaulting women because I played a videogame where these things happen.
And that's exactly what worries me - the people pushing this narrative, genuinely think I would want to start reenacting something I've seen in a videogame happen. That is complete nonsense.
Right. That's fair and I'll believe it.
Do you generally think there is any limit at all, in any type of media that crosses lines and shouldn't exist? Think "liveleak" stuff from when that was around.
Or do you consider this game topic just not crossing that line?
The idea that what you see online has an effect on what you do offline, is not that far fetched is it? I mean, I don't know if it's true and I guess you could argue it could work in both directions too. Do people blow off steam online so they don't have to enact their darkest fantasties IRL. Or does the online material encourage or normalize these things? It could also be so that this works different for different people. It let's one person blow of steam, while it pushes someone else over the edge to do something horrendous. And if that is the case, is it fair to take it away from those who are not negatively influenced by it, to prevent those in whom it inspires bad actions from seeing it. I guess we'd need research on the matter, I don't know if it exist or how reliable it is. But I don't think it's a nonsensical question to ask what the effects are.
Jesus Christ we can't be back to this old chestnut.
We cannot, and do not, standardize society's guard rails around the most extreme edge cases.
Leave it back with Jack Thompson in the late 90s-early 00s where it belongs. The horse has already been jellied by repeated blunt force trauma more than a decade ago. You're just punching a horse shaped divot into the dirt at this point.
The question is if it's edge cases. People suffer sexual trauma in very large numbers and working in psychiatry has taught me how incredibly harmful it can be. If this kind of material could help prevent sexual trauma, we should definitely allow it. If research shows that it makes problems far worse, we should consider limiting access to it. I am not saying either is the case, I am saying I don't understand what is wrong with the question itself.
This restated question is not the problem directly.
The problem is the entire discussion/concept of "exposure to a dangerous idea in a pretend context maybe might maybe make someone more likely to emulate it in reality" when there has been little to no evidence found supporting that concept. Additionally the non-proportional amount of concern given to videogames in relationship to this concept as compared to literally any other form of media.
If there was even one iota of connection between "exposure to horrible things in media" (or even "pretending to do horrible things in a pretend context") and "doing horrible things in real life", the world would already look considerably different than it does. Militaries would be using these games as "exposure therapy" for soldiers. We'd be seeing crime rates of all sorts shifting in accordance with the media industries. There would already be measurable impacts after the decades of these things existing.
And more so than any of that: This discussion has literally been happening for longer than any of us here have been alive. I'm tired of having it.
Please stop letting the vague idea of "but it might help" override the logic of "but there's no evidence to support that except a vague gut feeling".
Okay, Jack Thompson
My line is: any kind of fictional content is ok. If nobodies hurt, then there is no crime. And in practice being maniac in games doesn't translate to being maniac irl. There might be some exceptions of crazy people being inspired by games to do crimes, but they should be dealt with on case-by-case basis using just regular law and law enforcement.
Moral judgement or suppression of fiction/artistic expression is deeply and profoundly unethical. How you or I or anyone else feels about something that isn’t “real” is inconsequential. If you allow any line to be crossed in this, then every line can and will be crossed.
I'm pretty sure I can find fictional things immoral? Why would it be unethical to have an opinion on fictional things?
Factually, all the lines that you allow to be crossed are crossed and all lines that are collectively defended are usually not crossed. That's culture. It's arbitrary and not absolute.