The first who joined that Safe Place for Science program. I'm sure there have been others who didn't know about that, or didn't want the publicity, but just left quietly when they realized how bad things were getting.
this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2025
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The marketing of it kind of creeps me out.
“Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.”
Lower wages and lower research budgets in Europe are very tangible problems.
The reason USA attract so many high level scientists and researchers, is that they throw more money at it.
Despite that, I'm sure most researchers will find that you can do more with less here in Europe, both on research and with your private economy. And quality of life seems to me to be miles ahead compared to USA.
Well the USA is aiming to fix that by cutting a third of all education spending and by dismantling the entire department of education.
Even lower is more than zero.
Cost of living is significantly lower, and the social safety net means you don't need as much anyway.
My gut feel is wages are so much higher in the US because everyone is responsible for looking after themselves if life turns on them, so you're obliged to stockpile wealth in case you're suddenly jobless or have a giant medical or education bill to contend with.
This. People can make more in the US because the country doesn't give a fuck about it's people. It's like gambling the health and wellness of you and your family to horde up some Cash.
as if anyone in America is saving their money 🤣
There absolutely are. There are a lot of people at the top (not even billionaires) that are making tons of money as the working class suffer.
we're talking about the average person; the idea that the average person in the US is using their higher income as savings to compensate for lack of social programs is delusional imo, I think most people have significant debt and will just fall between the cracks if they lose their job or get sick and can't work, etc.
Sure. My point wasn't that. My point is that there are still a not insignificant amount of people that are a part of the professional/managerial class who's material interests align with that of the ruling capitalist class of billionaires.
There is still a portion of "working" people that benefit enough from neoliberalism that they continue to believe that capitalism is a fair system that benefits hard work.
sure, but it doesn't feel particularly relevant, those people aren't that different from less economically privileged working class folks who defend capitalism despite gaining no material benefit from doing so. The upper middle classes that align that way are still exploited in their jobs and victims of the system they align with, and that's no different than everyone else. Division among the working classes doesn't help our cause, and those middle upper classes would be some of the most valuable allies in cultivating change if their consciousness was raised, since they at least are not completely empty-handed. Think of people like Che Guevara who had such immense influence - he was precisely one of those middle upper class people whose consciousness was raised when he witnessed the American-backed coup in Guatemala.
I mean the average person in the professional/managerial class is not Che. The entire point is to analyze it from material incentives. That is the tools of dialectical materialism that we have at our disposal.
The material interests of the professional class aligns with the capitalist class. I'm in that class technically. I'm a well paid software engineer that gets a large portion of my pay in stock. I'm doing well.
I know that my material interests are aligned with the success of capital. I have to make a conscious choice to be a class traitor and work against my own material interests. And that's easier for me. I'm not even a manager or a landlord.
You're kind of proving my point using an example like Che. He literally was educated into Marxism through personal experience throughout motorcycle diaries.
The average person in the professional/managerial class is not like me and definitely not like Che.
Yes, but we continue to fail to communicate - I was never undermining your point about material commitments, I think that point is well-taken, it's the conclusions you draw that I disagree with, i.e. in terms of lumping the capitalist class together with members of the working class ... When I say Che Guevara was a valuable member of the revolution, it is to highlight an example of how valuable class consciousness can be from members of the working class who are more privileged but are not members of the capitalist class.
I wish to resist the tendency to view someone like a software engineer as equivalent to the capitalist class, just because material incentives exist. A software engineer is not a capitalist, they are working class, and the revolution is served by viewing professional and managerial workers as workers, worthy of being included and incorporated into the revolution. Not because they are that way already, I am agreeing with you by suggesting the opposite, that they aren't aware of their status as working class because they have some material incentives, so they align with the wrong class interests.
The right response to this, in my opinion, is to work on raising their class consciousness, while it feels like you are suggesting the opposite (essentially lumping them together and furthering the entrenched idea that they are helplessly aligned with the capitalists and thus basically capitalists themselves).
Yeah. The top 1% of incomes is generally $500K - $1M depending on which site I look at.
In the eyes of billionaires, people at that level are just poors that get paid too much to keep them humble, but with respect to regular incomes they are the rich people building investment portfolios in things like stocks and being a landlord to 5-10 units.
focusing on income is distorting, socially and politically some of the wealthiest and most powerful people have the lowest incomes, it's just not the best lens of evaluating power or wealth.
Very true. It's like an order of magnitude difference, where 1% income is in the "approaching a million" ballpark, but 1%er net worth is above 10 million.
But relative to the billionaires like I was talking about, they are at about the same tier of "poor person but with class," lol.
it is people, indeed
We call it savings, not hoarding. But yeah. You need it. If you lose your job here, you’re fucked.
For a lot of people in this country it's hording.
Absolutely free healthcare and education are big parts of doing more with less, and quality of life.
But it's also easier to buy a house or apartment, and quality food is cheaper, and paid holidays and on and on.
We have so many privileges Americans don't have it's crazy.
While that is true, academic wages are still laughably low in Europe, even compared to wages here.
You can earn more after 5 years in the industry than as a full professor in academia. We should pay academics more.
It was one of the reasons I left academia. I doubled my pay within two years.
I agree, but don't forget that every year, things get harder because everything is trying to find more ways to take that extra money from you. From schools, companies, and government they are all figuring out ways to come up with new mandatory requirements for stuff that normally ends up being a new fee or payment on top of what you used to need. For example when you are in school, you probably need way more certifications in things which costs more money either by a 1 time fee or sometimes yearly fees and a lot of this never existed 20-30 years ago. I feel like we pay for literally everything, and it all keeps going up as well. It's hard to get ahead when everyone wants a piece of your pie.
Attracted
That's what we thought last time under Trump. But it turned out most scientists go for the higher wages and budgets in USA.
scientists and researchers, is that they throw more money at it.
You seem to be using the present tense there rather than the past tense. Are you sure that's still true. I was under the impression the Bibulous Bumbling Bill had slashed research budgets (among other things like medicaid) in order to fund billionaire tax cuts.
Not to mention the attempts to proscribe what can be researched that Harvard is currently litigating
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Good on you expats, may Europe treat you with the respect you deserve.
it's France, the answer is probably not.
Yeah, but at least when their government mistreats them, they actually bring out the guillotines.
Americans used to know how to deal with fascist dictators
they know how to protest.
Damn I gotta go back to school
Con on your new homes. We'll miss you but know humanity is better off with you there.
-grats? new slang?
No usually my phones keyboard would finish con-gratulations when I double hit spacebar. But the last update decided my keyboard app I've been using for 5 years now with no issues needed Ai. And the Ai decided my 5 years of predictive typing is wrong and I ment con. I'm so annoyed I don't correct it half the time.
That is the best excuse for a typo ever, congrats to you. (Mine still autocorrects correctly, woo)
It used to be known as swyft keyboard. Then Microsoft gobbled it up a couple years back. Now it fucking has copilot. I have never fucking once started a sentence with "Con" I've started a whole fucking bunch with congratulations! (I work in education and that's how I text and email parents when they've been taken off the after school program wait list. Wait list because we don't have the funding to support more children. But my phones Ai got a carve out on this recent budget bill... We are sooo fucked.)
god I wish I could go but I'm just a dork with an Associates 😭
maybe your associate might get a visa, try marrying them
Donald Trumps America is right. This isn’t my America.
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