this post was submitted on 09 May 2025
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"I'll sell my inventions so everyone can be superheroes; everyone can be super!" - a guy who lies a lot (lemmy.zip)
submitted 14 hours ago by Genius@lemmy.zip to c/onehundredninetysix@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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Explanation: A lot of Internet People say that The Incredibles is objectivist (Ayn Rand's ideology) because the heroes fight against a revolutionary who wants to make everyone equal by giving people superpowers.

What they miss is that this "revolutionary" is a billionaire who made his fortune selling weapons to world governments under the table, and his only motivation for saying he'd sell his weapons is to make money and spite his enemy. There's no reason to think he would follow through, and selling powers doesn't mean everyone gets them. It means everyone with money gets them. Syndrome is proposing a world where rich people have super powers. That's just the plot of Vampire: The Masquerade.

Syndrome is co-opting leftist rhetoric to make himself look like a hero, while not actually understanding it, because he's not a leftist. He's a capitalist billionaire. And the Internet People who think this movie is bad because it praises hypercapitalist ideology... fell for the capitalist's rhetoric.

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[–] regul@lemm.ee 4 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

If you're having a struggle session about the ideology in a children's movie you need to be less online.

[–] grrgyle@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 hour ago

Or differently online. Like maybe check out more Wikipedia.

Though just to say some people do have intellectual disabilities or other challenges, like they have 0 clue where to even start. In which case it's totally understandable to ask for help understanding this stuff.

[–] Smorty@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

i dun evn kno whad any of these wrords mean

[–] Genius@lemmy.zip 2 points 7 hours ago

Superhero movie good. Rich man bad. Rich man say superheroes bad. Rich man wrong. Leftists watch movie, agree with rich man. Silly.

[–] drosophila@lemmy.blahaj.zone 25 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

Its kind of hilarious to me that in this movie the main character beats a healthcare insurance executive to within an inch of his life, probably crushing his windpipe and breaking every bone in his body.

And this is treated by the film as a more-or-less morally justified act (neither Mr Incredible nor the audience are meant to suffer any compunction over the act itself, merely the consequences the blowback causes for his family) and moreover society at large determined that this is wholesome enough to be in a kids movie.

Like, imagine describing a plot point like that in any other piece of media: "in this movie a Superman-expy loses his temper and throws a non-superpowered person through a wall, putting him in a hospital bed for months". You'd be like "wow that must be some edgy deconstruction of the superhero genre like The Boys or Invincible", but nope, its a PG rated Pixar film.

Which draws a pretty stark contrast between that and the faux bewilderment and outrage at the reaction to a certain shooting involving a CEO. Like, you can't be that surprised at what is clearly a pretty mainstream view, right?

[–] AppleTea@lemmy.zip 33 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (2 children)

The argument I saw is that the film is Randian because a central plot point is government regulation making things worse by forcing exceptional individuals into hiding. Forcing "super" people to be normal. Syndrome's threat is a foil to this, the same outcome reached through the opposite approach.

His line, "When everyone's super, no one will be," even mirrors a scene earlier in the film, where Helen says, "Everyone is special, Dash," and her son replies sourly, "...which is another way of saying no-one is."

It comes up twice and nothing in the dialog, events, or general framing suggest the filmmakers want us to see this as anything but a neutral, factual observation. I think you've thought through the actual consequences of Syndrome's threat more that the filmmakers did. Kinda a shame, would have made for a better sequel than the one we got.

[–] Genius@lemmy.zip 20 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

You're missing the line right before Helen says "everyone's special, Dash" - "But Dad always told us our powers are nothing to be ashamed of; our powers make us special!"

That exchange is part of an ongoing argument between Bob and Helen about how to raise their children. Bob wants to teach the children a sense of superiority, Helen wants them to fit in. Bob's desire to see himself as better than others is something he slowly overcomes over the course of the movie. He can't defeat Syndrome until he gets over that mindset, stops trying to do everything alone, and accepts help from the people he loves. Helen directly says in the cake/rubble scene that Bob is projecting his ego onto Dash.

In that scene, Dash is showing us that Bob's misunderstanding of heroism is tearing his family apart and affecting his children. He's already hurt one child with his idea that heroism is about superiority, and now he's hurting another. We see Syndrome say the same thing as Dash so that we understand Bob needs to overcome this thinking to prevent Dash from growing up like Syndrome.

It's really good writing.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 6 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

To bring it here, since you pointed me at it, I don't see how Helen's line changes anything.

The movie never contradicts Bob, Dash OR Syndrome. Right after Syndrome brings back Dash's line there is no more debate. He just goes to enact his plan and the family goes to physically stop him, which ends with him getting exposed as a fraud and then killed. By his own incompetence, I might add. Because he's not meant to be special.

Likewise, in Dash's scene that's the end of the conversation.

If the movie was meant to reinforce that, actually, everybody IS special, they forgot to put it in the text.

And hey, I think Bird has conservative views on this front ("there's no school like the old school!"), but I don't think he's a bad writer. If he wanted Bob to learn his lesson he would have had him learn his lesson. He does explicitly learn he should not have lied to his family and that they work better as a unit (itself a heck of a conservative read on the thing), but not because "everybody is special". He wins THAT particular argument pretty spectacularly, both with Helen, who is fully back on his camp by the end, and with the government, who are also back on board with special people being special all by themselves, which apparently yields benefits for society at large, I'm being told.

[–] Genius@lemmy.zip 6 points 9 hours ago (2 children)

Syndrome is special. He built himself rocket boots as a ten year old. I'm a grown adult and I can't do that! He doesn't get his ass beat by the Omnidroid due to a specialness deficiency. He gets his ass beat because he invented an AI specifically designed to learn how to fight supers, and then had it fight him. He did a bad thing and the bad thing hurt him. He got leopard face'd. "I didn't think leopards would eat MY face, says supervillain who trained leopards to eat faces." There's nobody in the movie who can solo the Omnidroid. Not Bob, not Frozone, not Syndrome. The Incredibles beat it with teamwork, love, and trust. Syndrome tells his teammate that love makes you weak and he can't be trusted.

The counter to Syndrome's argument is that power didn't make him a superhero. Syndrome says "Oh, I'm real. Real enough to defeat you! And I did it without your oh-so-special powers." Syndrome thinks being a "real hero" is about being strong. Selling his technology to rich people isn't going to turn everyone into a hero. Syndrome, and all other billionaires, are unheroic because of their awful personalities. Powers aren't what makes the difference.

You know who doesn't have powers and is awesome? Edna. Edna Mode is most certifiably, 100% special. And it's all in her personality.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 4 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

Syndrome doesn't say he'll sell his gadgets to rich people, though. You added that in.

In fact, if he sold his gadgets only to rich people his statement that "when everyone is special, noone is" wouldn't make sense. I mean, you can guess that's how it'd play out in real life, but the movie never does anything to suggest that's the case.

It's the same with the interpretation that it's Syndrome who thinks superheroing is about strength. There's no indication of that. In fact, he says the exact opposite in his first appearance. Admittedly the way he says it seems to imply there are other operating superheroes with no natural powers, but the movie never confirms whether this is true or explicitly show any of them on screen.

And yes, he lost because of a "specialness deficiency". He clumsily loses the gear he has to control the robot and when he has to try to stop it legitimately he gets immediately knocked out. He then tries to kidnap Jack-Jack, gets immediately stomped on by Jack-Jack, has a car thrown at him he can't avoid and finally gets sucked into a jet engine because he's wearing a cape.

None of that is inconsistent the read we're giving you. I am torn on whether the movie thinks Syndrome is Bob's fault for being too arrogant to properly explain things to him or not, but that's because the movie sure seems unconcerned about addressing it.

Like the guy above said, Syndrome isn't flawed because he is an evil dick, he is an evil dick to justify his flaws. Because if the movie made Syndrome reasonable-but-frustrated and not a psychotic asshole he would not play as the villain. His position is tragic, but not unreasonable. Which is fine, it's a common choice, but it's one made when you don't have the time or disposition to engage with the villain's argument and need to discard it so you can focus on what you really care about (in this case how little, suburban middle class life stiffles the aspirations and creativity of a certain type of person) (that type of person is, I suspect, mostly Brad Bird).

This wasn't a rare narrative at the time. The Incredibles took a bit longer to get there, so it showed up post-9-11, but the late 90s are riddled with it. Fight Club, American Beauty, Office Space... it's practically a subgenre by itself that decade.

[–] Genius@lemmy.zip 4 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

Jack Jack is the most powerful character in the movie, and he can be handled by a teenager with a fire extinguisher. Is Kari more special than Syndrome?

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 4 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

"Handled" is a way to put it. The running gag throughout the movie is she gets progressively more overwhelmed in the background while trying to reach out to the parents until they eventually come home to the fallout (and Syndrome finds out why the hard way).

Jack-Jack is the ultimate eff you to Syndrome. He tries to kidnap him and it's made VERY clear to the audience that normie Syndrome can't even stack up to a special people when they're a baby. Jack-Jack rescues himself.

I'd argue that he disproves your whole thing about the kids being special because they learn to listen to their parent because it's extremely obvious that Jack-Jack is strong from birth, not as a result of any lessons or upbringing.

But he's a bit of a punchline, no need to force the entire thing through his lens for it to say what it's saying.

The joke is on Syndrome, though. And it's still about how he can't fake his way to natural talent.

[–] Genius@lemmy.zip 4 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Kari had Jack Jack handled better than Syndrome. Why? Because she's a good babysitter. Babysitting is a more useful skill when looking after a baby than engineering. Syndrome is better at building gadgets, Kari is better at looking after a baby.

It's not an absolute idea of specialness or universal competence. Not the Randian idea of Prime Movers. What we see in this movie is that EVERYONE has useful skills. Even an awkward teenage girl in braces. Syndrome doesn't have the awkward teenage girl's skills, and it gets him killed. Even for all his intellect, money, and power, he doesn't have what she has. Everyone's special.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 2 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

But... you are not saying everyone is special.

You are saying some people are. Fundamentally.

I mean, not to be too real, but superpowers aren't a thing, they stand in for other stuff in the movie. Talent, ambition, creativity, whatever. If you're going to push me into the dregs of hermeneutics I'd point out that the two "good guy" non-powered characters, Edna and Kari, are both women defined by providing a service to the talented ones. There is a very specific difference between them and the supes.

They may be special, but they're not... "special". And there are definitely people who are fundamentally not "special" who definitely benefit from what the special people do. In the movie, that is.

That is a very specific framing. If it's not Randian Prime Movers it's certainly adjacent to it. It's hard to watch that movie and come out of it not thinking there is a fundamental impetus in Bob and Dash specifically that drives them to doing something specific and great and makes them miserable if suppressed. Either the powers are presented as a metaphor for that or as a manifestation of that.

[–] Genius@lemmy.zip 1 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

There's a specific impetus in 99% of little boys that makes them want to run a lot.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 1 points 3 hours ago

Yeah, but people don't make movies about that.

They do, however, sometimes notice that and use it to build an elaborate metaphor about family's place in society and the emasculative nature of suburban middle class life.

That happens to have some objectivist undertones sometimes.

[–] AppleTea@lemmy.zip 4 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

Edna describes her work with supers as "designing for Gods". Again, this feeds into the underlying subtext through the film that some people are innately better than others, and should not be constrained in the same way normal people are.

[–] Genius@lemmy.zip 4 points 9 hours ago

She then goes on to describe how many of her "gods" were killed by their capes. The same thing that happened to Syndrome.

[–] vzqq@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (1 children)

Yes, this. The fact that billionaires become crazed money monsters that accept unthinkable collateral damage in order to feel special is very relevant to the current time period, but it didn’t resonate in the same way when it came out.

The real “incredible” bit is that syndrome made his own gadgets. You know that the real syndrome would have sub basements upon sub basements stuffed with brilliant engineers from developing countries to produce his stuff.

Maybe he did.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 4 points 10 hours ago

I was joking elsewhere that if the movie wasn't on the political wavelength it is Bob would certainly be the villain. Because man, that kid was making hoverboots when he was in primary school. Most useful superpower in the whole movie and Bob discouraged him right into the private sector.

[–] ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 10 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah, Syndrome reminds me of the right-wing people that appropriate leftist talking points to push their own.

If you don't let big AI companies to train your data, then you support Disney, oppose public domain, and oppose use of samples in music.

If you don't let us call Yasuke from Assassin's Creed Shadows "N----r", then you support Ubisoft, crunch, and workplace sexual harassment.

At least with the latter group, they don't actually care about their own talking points, and think any software development is just "pressing buttons", and at the very worst, want to solve workplace sexual harassment by removing women altogether from the workforce, then "make them give birth to more workers".

[–] belastend@slrpnk.net 1 points 3 hours ago

If you don't let big AI companies to train your data, then you support Disney, oppose public domain, and oppose use of samples in music.

Alexander Avila intensifies.

[–] Genius@lemmy.zip 19 points 14 hours ago

Superheroism isn't about being better than everyone else, it's about helping people. That's Bob's arc and it's the message of the entire movie. Everyone who says the movie is about better people being told to be equal to everyone else is misunderstanding it as badly as Syndrome does. The movie is about kind people being told to let others suffer.

Look at the way our society treats climate activists, or Black Lives Matter, or communists. We're told to sit down and shut up. Stop trying to help other people who are in danger. Just be a cog in the system and let the health insurance company sentence people to death. Don't rock the boat. Don't make waves. Don't cause drama. Look what they're doing to Luigi.

Superheroes are a metaphor for leftists.