this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2024
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I have been considering the obvious organizations such as FRSO or PSL. However, an article really made some points that stood out to me:

https://cosmonautmag.com/2018/10/from-workers-party-to-workers-republic-2/

“What made the “Leninist party of a new type” different was not democratic centralism. Rather than simple centralism, Comintern parties had a form of ‘monolithism’ to use the phrase of Fernando Claudin.14 In other words, Comintern parties emphasized centralism over democracy or often just disregarded democratic norms entirely. While this wasn’t absent in the Second International, the Third was born as a sort of militarized civil war organization rather than a political party in the sense of a mass workers association as envisioned by Marx. While this may have been justified at a time when an actual global civil war against capitalism was on the table, this is not the case right now – we are not living in the same era of ‘Wars and Revolutions’ as the leaders of the Comintern were. When modern Leninists claim the secret of their parties’ road to success is ‘democratic centralism’, it tends to mean an overly bureaucratized group that puts heavy workloads on individual members to make them more ‘disciplined’, and a lack of actual democracy in favor of a more militarized party structure. Factions are forbidden, ideological centralism (rather than programmatic centralism) is imposed from above, and groups aim to build an ‘elite’ cadre that tails existing mass struggles, hoping to bank in on them to recruit members. The Comintern model is simply a recipe for failure in today’s conditions, just another guide to building yet another sect that will compete for the latest batch of recruits. How this actually works in practice is exemplified by the state of actually existing contemporary Leninism in the USA.

Take PSL, FRSO-FB and the ISO as case studies. Alongside schemes to take over union bureaucracy, these organizations essentially form front groups that hide affiliation to any kind of communist goals and aim to mobilize students around the latest liberal social justice issues and work in alliance with NGOs to throw rallies of mostly symbolic value. Through these activities, the cadre (or inner group) of the Leninist organization hopes to recruit parts of the liberal activist community in order to grow their base of support and garner more influence in these social movements. The organizations themselves proclaim democratic centralism, but in reality, there is no public debate about party positions allowed between congresses. At the congresses debate, takes place as little as possible and is usually led by an unelected central committee that composed of full-time staffer careerists. By using their “militant minority” tactics to act as the “spark that lights the prairie fire” in popular struggles, the modern Leninists (with some exceptions of course) tend to tail these struggles instead of fight for a class-conscious approach to issues of civil and democratic rights. One tactic often used is to hand out as many of their signs as possible to appear larger in number, when in reality this is often protesting street theater backed by NGOs connected to the Democrats who are simply using leftists as useful idiots for “direct actions” against the Republicans. Usually, the rationale for this activism is to raise consciousness among liberals. Theoretically, by ‘riding the wave’ of spontaneous activism, the militant minority group will build up enough influence to launch an insurrection. This is a delusional hope. It leads to chronic involvement in activism that takes up time and energy but doesn’t build working class institutions that can actually offer concrete gains for working people through collective action. One could describe this general strategy of tailing social movements as ‘movementism’.”

I have definitely observed this within FRSO's seeding of cadre in "front" "mass" organizations such as New SDS, anti-war groups, or various NAARPR chapters to recruit other cadre.

There is also a strange divide and turf war between otherwise similar programmatic unity between PSL, FRSO, and WWP. Like, UNITE!

Open to feedback and thoughts, need to talk it out with other comrades.

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[–] CarlMarks@lemmygrad.ml 21 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Cosmonaut is mostly just the newsletter for the Marxist Unity Group in the DSA. MUG, in my experience, is full of unread chauvinists. Their main thing is to say we need to amend the US Constitution, lmao. "Revolutionary socialists".

I think it is a shame that ML groups don't merge, as it does mean that there is some level of dysfunction, but that is not a good reason to not create or join ML orgs.

Similarly, I don't think the author appreciates the true value of front orgs, which is the protection of the cadre org from both external attack and as a way to pipeline liberals without needing to let them into your organization and fuck it up with their terrible opinions. DSA does the latter and that is why it is garbage despite having so many members (on paper). You literally don't have to read or do anything to join and MUG has similarly low standards.

I do think that there is an overprescription of an aesthetic of democratic centralism, which I view as more of a situational tool than something essential for all communist organizations. The hard work of making it truly function is more about personal relationships and building the organization's capacity through education in theory and practicr and modeling productive behaviors while discouraging toxic ones. How to treat each other well and constructively, to protect each other and through this the organization and not the other way around. Only then can you have productive struggle rather than endless splits and "why I am leaving" essays.

[–] RedCheer@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Similarly, I don’t think the author appreciates the true value of front orgs, which is the protection of the cadre org from both external attack and as a way to pipeline liberals without needing to let them into your organization and fuck it up with their terrible opinions. DSA does the latter and that is why it is garbage despite having so many members (on paper).

I appreciate this new perspective on "front orgs." I was viewing them as deceptive and a bit anti-democratic or entryist before. This adds nuance.

You literally don’t have to read or do anything to join and MUG has similarly low standards.

I believe there is quite a bit of prior reading, study period and application process to join MUG, but I agree with your assessment of DSA at large. I am glad MUG and Red Star Caucus exist in so far as there is some opportunity for Marxist education and formation within the DSA, which I view more as a "mass org" than any party or Marxist-Leninist organization.

[–] CarlMarks@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 2 months ago

I appreciate this new perspective on "front orgs." I was viewing them as deceptive and a bit anti-democratic or entryist before. This adds nuance.

Hilariously, the motivation for forming MUG, which can be found on Cosmonaut, is fundamentally entryist.

I believe there is quite a bit of prior reading, study period and application process to join MUG, but I agree with your assessment of DSA at large

That's what they say, but nearly every MUG member I have met doesn't know the basics of Marxism and certainly not anti-imperialism. I can think of only one exception.

I am glad MUG and Red Star Caucus exist in so far as there is some opportunity for Marxist education and formation within the DSA, which I view more as a "mass org" than any party or Marxist-Leninist organization.

The DSA is an incoherent social club that, when duty calls, always fails to meet the moment. More commies in more places is good, but despite controlling half of their leading committee, they have not produced substantial results. And their ground game is... not great. I wish Red Star luck but I don't think it is a practical way to build an org. For example, their chapter membership in my area is smaller than a communist org my comrade creater just 1 year ago.

[–] RedCheer@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Looking for historical examples of cadre in front orgs in previous or current AES states.

[–] CarlMarks@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 2 months ago

They were used extensively in Virtnam and China when the cadre party was underground. The CPP currently uses many.

[–] immuredanchorite@hexbear.net 21 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

The organizations themselves proclaim democratic centralism, but in reality, there is no public debate about party positions allowed between congresses. At the congresses debate, takes place as little as possible and is usually led by an unelected central committee that composed of full-time staffer careerists

idk, you aren't supposed to publicly debate the parties position between congresses... that is the entire premise of democratic centralism. This person clearly doesn't know what democratic centralism is... also, idk about other orgs, but in PSL an "unelected central committee of full-time staffers" is just straight up not true in my experience. The CC is most definitely elected and idk if there are really many "staffers" to speak of. this person is speaking out of their ass

[–] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 2 months ago

While the Second International primarily made rightist political errors, the Third International primarily made ‘ultra-left’ political errors. From this observation, we can come to a sort of center, where the positives and negatives of both Internationals can be learned from. This overall position, of building a mass party around a program for revolution through patiently consolidating the organized forces of the proletariat, could be described as “Centrist Marxism” or “the Marxist Center”. While the term ‘centrism’ is often used by Trotskyists as a term of derision, we use it here in this sense of a strategy that would mean patiently building up the forces of the revolutionary proletariat into democratically organized institutions, rather than trying to build a small “vanguard” or “militant minority” that will either intervene in a spontaneous movement or spark a revolution through armed struggle.

I don't know, the article seems to be making some pretty big leaps in reasoning based on limited data. I might be being unfair, I'll be honest, I'm struggling to get through it. Trying to universalize based on a couple of examples of going too far in one direction or another to find a goldilocks zone seems a bit absurd for the scale and particularity of communism on a world and local level.

What we need is to move beyond an attempted systemization of the Comintern and Lenin in particular, but rather continue the systemization of Marxism as a whole based on the entire history of class struggle. This is what Lenin did. Lenin didn’t see himself as a “Leninist”, creating a new stage of Marxism, but as an orthodox Marxist applying a system of thought to his own conditions. This doesn’t mean we should reject the most vital contributions of Lenin, for example, his views on revolutionary defeatism and imperialism. What it does mean is that much of what made Lenin great was already in Marx, Engels and even Kautsky. It means, much in the same way that Marx critically learned from the failures of the Communist League in developing his theory of the party, that we must critically learn from the failures of all past Internationals, especially the Second and Third (which historically had the most impact on mass politics).

I don't get this. An "orthodox Marxist"? This is from a publication that says it wants to do scientific socialism, so I'm assuming they mean for things to develop and they imply such with "applying a system of thought to his own conditions", but that's not orthodoxy.

The forces of the proletariat are weak and divided, it will take a long-haul approach to develop a party that can be a vehicle of independent political action. This doesn’t rely on any kind of ‘get rich quick’ scheme, where the party uses a mass line or transitional demands to attract the working class without actually convincing and winning them over to revolutionary politics. It means actually having to develop the actual organizational strength to put the working class into command of society. One has to essentially build a ‘state within a state’ which stands in opposition to the bourgeois order and command the loyalty of proletarians in their majority against the capitalist state. We cannot hope that crisis simply accelerates the working class into such misery that it has no choice but to go on mass strikes to form workers councils and then try to insert our militant minority into the movement to guide it on its proper track. Building a real alternative to capitalist rule requires, as Lenin pointed out, a principled core that is able to stay politically consistent while utilizing every tactic possible. No space left open in civil society, where we can agitate and educate, should be left unutilized. A class-independent workers party which does not neglect this fight is a necessity.

The workers’ party itself should be a prefiguration of the workers’ republic, in the sense of its internal governance. This means it should practice a form of democracy distinct from and beyond the democracy of liberalism. This means experimentation, investigating new forms of collective decision making and seeing what works. The party should be economically organized (as all parties are firms) on a cooperative basis with no salaries that allow for careerism. The Central Committee should be directly elected by the membership and recallable. Open debate and tolerance of factions, rather than the imposition of an ideological monolithism are key if the party wishes to demonstrate to the class that communism, not capitalism, is the truly free society.

Those who hope for a “democratic road to socialism” don’t desire a new revolutionary state that is backed by the masses. They treat the liberal state as a neutral site of class conflict that the proletariat can transform to its own ends over time, slowly enough to avoid a period of social conflict where a rupture in the class nature of the state will occur. This idea assumes we can sneak a revolution pass the bourgeoisie and ignores problems like capital flight that crash attempts at social-democratic reforms. This can’t simply be combated by a hope in pressure from “mass action in the streets”. And it ignores that the capitalist class will happily resort to breaking with democratic norms in face of a government that seriously threatens the rule of property if need be, even if socialists have a democratic mandate.

I'm not seeing where they address the issue of the state doing everything in its power to destroy what you do before it can even get started, beyond the article paying the point lip service that you can't do it all peacefully.

They seem to focus on the US, but I can't find a single mention of the Black Panther Party, which seems like a pretty important piece of data to leave out in past attempts at building political power and trying similar things to what they are talking about.

[–] StalinistSteve@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 2 months ago (3 children)

It's a good article, my experience with US communist parties/orgs has been largely about too much centralism and not enough democracy. Tailist lines but more importantly tactics, a never ending building of "revolutionary consciousness" that entails bashing anyone that doesn't want to play controlled opposition for the democrats an adventurist. I have to clarify -- building revolutionary consciousness is the goal, but it's done through building dual power, not before. By limiting their organizing tactics to police sanctioned parades and attempting to build revolutionary consciousness among systemically reactionary groups, they're continually doomed to fail and thus function to forever condemn anyone looking to build a functional movement or even do a functional action.

Another aspect in the USA is the labor aristocracy. These orgs fail to see this as an integral part of organizing in the USA due to the fact that many of them are labor aristocracy, forever prioritizing the "white working class" and not building a base among the non-settler classes and then reaching out for settlers to work under non-settler leadership. As it is we have continual issues of organizations headed by white people saying they represent the liberation of black and indigenous people, having those same people abused or even sexually assaulted in the organizations on a systemic basis, and when they call the organizations out they get fed-jacketed. I legitimately think these orgs would have a better shot doing revolutionary work if they admitted their labor aristocracy base, put forth theories of transcending whiteness and committing class suicide, and put themselves at service to the revolutionaries around the world and at home instead of considering themselves vanguards to a cause that isn't in their class interest. No more shit like PSL creating theories of indigenous liberation that just recreate the colonial relationship that exists today, because as long as that kind of thing keeps happening the actual revolutionary classes of america will never have anything to gain from them.

[–] jack@hexbear.net 15 points 2 months ago (2 children)

forever prioritizing the "white working class"

Who says this?

No more shit like PSL creating theories of indigenous liberation that just recreate the colonial relationship that exists today

What do you mean by this, specifically? What theory of indigenous liberation has PSL put out that recreates the colonial relationship?

[–] QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Explicit patsocs sometimes call for that, but often they stick to the “working class” which happens to be strictly blue collar and not all proles.

[–] ComradeSalad@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

But how is that relevant in reference to the PSL? I would hardly call them any degree of Patsoc. Plus who cares what Patsocs advocate for to begin with?

[–] QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 2 months ago

I’m not talking about PSL, just who might use that language.

[–] Murple_27@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

If you're going to call yourself "Stalinist Steve" you should actually fuckin' read his work, dude.

[–] StalinistSteve@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Stalin's stance on Israel was horrible and one of his biggest mistakes, he was a good theorist for his country but not settler colonialism and I am not so dogmatic to see him as unfalliable. Doesn't mean he isn't a fuckin hero and symbol of justice

[–] Murple_27@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Stalin’s stance on Israel was horrible and one of his biggest mistakes

True, but his position on Bundism was correct.

[–] ComradeSalad@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 2 months ago

He doesn't care, he complete dodged your question and could care less about the work you linked. Its only useful if it reinforces his preexisting beliefs.

[–] Rextreff@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

If PSL and FRSO aren't good then which party should I join?

[–] v_pp@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 2 months ago

Idk much about FRSO, I've heard they're fine but I can't speak personally to it. It's definitely worth forming your own opinion on PSL, since this guy wages a personal crusade against them so you're not exactly getting an unbiased perspective. In my experience, I strongly disagree with his perspective on the class and national composition of the PSL, and he has yet to provide a more substantive critique. In my experience, PSL are a party that is genuinely composed of the multinational working class of the United States.

[–] StalinistSteve@lemmygrad.ml -2 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Hard to say, not really many orgs I can recommend with a national presence. Chunka Luta is great. Think of your local struggles, lots of black defence groups in the black belt, national soverignty struggles in Hawaii and Alaska, local community care orgs, socialist/john brown gun clubs. Make a book club with your friends if you can, radicalize your communities and never stop learning.

[–] v_pp@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 2 months ago

This is clearly rooted in an idealist lack of understanding of the actual present state of various national liberation struggles. As much as I wish it wasn't the case, no matter how low your opinion of the PSL is, at best those groups aren't any closer to achieving revolutionary change than the PSL are. That being said, the PSL explicitly aims to organize alongside, and often deferring to, those elements of national liberation struggles that aren't completely reactionary guided by the principle of the right of all nations to self determination.

[–] Rextreff@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] StalinistSteve@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Why you're here, the struggles that affect you, the history of the nation, our world, the entrapped nations within. The aformationed chunka luta org has a great library and reading list.

[–] jack@hexbear.net 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Watch out! They recommend reading this piece (https://mega.nz/folder/cuMwjRyK#eDPayQSdYFwaCh9qr8zzPw/folder/UjVXDLJA) about the importance of treaty rights and treaty recognition. I guess the natives who wrote it and recommended it are Maki-like settlers? That is a red flag, after all.

[–] StalinistSteve@lemmygrad.ml -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

?? An appeal to the US government is extremely different than the plan for a revolutionary government to take its place. Why do white people think they can speak like this?

[–] v_pp@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

What do you think Socialist Reconstruction is about? Appealing to the bourgeois US government?

[–] StalinistSteve@lemmygrad.ml -1 points 2 months ago

The link they posted was broken, Im assuming they meant the piece in there that is an appeal to the US government to allow more soverignty for the natives through the following and amending of treaties. This is similar as to when hamas advocates for two state, it's not because it is the basis for their liberation, but by advocating for it and always ready to be working for it the hypocrisy and the untenable situation they are in becomes clear.

Socialist reconstruction is not an appeal to US imperialism and I judge to a different standard

[–] Rextreff@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 2 months ago

I want to start a book club but i'm too dumb d;