this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2023
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theNetherlands
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There is an important distinction here between point of sale (PoS) & debts. AFAIK, the Netherlands & Belgium makes no distinction. But Australia & the US does make the distinction because it’s more of an injustice if a debt cannot be settled in cash.
PoS w/cash ensures privacy & access. It’s also resilient to catastrophes like the power grid going down, bugs and malware bringing down appliances, etc. But if a merchant does not accept cash then it’s not a big¹ deal. The contract doesn’t happen and at least neither party is at a loss.
W.r.t. debts, a debtor cannot guarantee bank access throughout the whole duration of the contract. Creditors also profit from late fees when their info system goes down or they do something to make payments painful or they alter the firewall config to block some customers. The debtor should not be put in a position of incurring penalties whenever the creditor adversely changes the info system. Cash should always be an option because shit breaks.
I’ve had a bank that decided out of the pure blue “we are closing both walk-in service and the website permanently… use our closed-source smartphone app which only works on very recent phones if you want to continue accessing your money”. Not joking. Banks are pulling that shit. I have a term for this: “broken”. When my bank is broken, I still need to be able to pay creditors & if they don’t take cash & yet still expect to be paid, on time or penalty levied, it’s an injustice.
¹ Assuming we’re not talking about something extremely essential. When there is one energy supplier to choose from and they don’t take cash, that is a big deal. So really there needs to be a further distinction between PoS of something both essential and uniquely sold, and other sales.
That’s a problem because now that banks have started violating people’s human rights, the energy suppliers forced banking policy doubles down on those human rights violations.
The grocery store is not going to let you walk out with groceries if their payment system is down. Hence the importance of cash.
The way I received a notice was the app refusing to function. I do not call that “in advance”. Nor does advance warning justify it. They can give months of advance warning - I’m still being forced into the private marketplace to needlessly procure new hardware because of designed obsolecense. To not object is to support that abuse.
There are also still banks that have over the counter service and web service. This does not obviate the fact that some banks impose a closed-source app that depends on agreeing to Google or Apple’s privacy-abusing ToS. Any and all banks are within their rights to go in that same direction. Pointing to a couple banks and saying “look, these two banks are not yet fucked up” is not decent rationale for forced banking.
Bingo. That’s the problem. The finger-pointing is designed to point blame on the victim.
I think you missed my comment that mortgage contracts are non-negotiable.
Actually it is their problem. They can point to the contract all they want but they can’t suck blood out of a rock. If they shoot themselves in the foot by drafting a fragile contract with simple points of failure, they have a business problem because they still need to get paid. It’s also the victim’s problem to the extent that the debt is high enough for the lender to put a lien on the home. That’s actually the only problem I care about because a human being is taking a hit for an incompetent system in that case.
Banks are giving different treatment to different customers based on their national origin. They singled out those born in a particular country. Some banks showed the marginalized group the door.. gave them a GTFO in one month notice. Other banks said “you can stay, but we’re reporting your activity to Canada (for example)”. If you are born anywhere else, you do not get that “special” treatment. It’s a human rights violation because people are not being treated the same.
Regardless, the mortgage still remains unpaid if the grocer accepts your cash but the lender does not.
If only the app tells you, that’s obviously incompetent design as it relies on you opening the app frequently enough. Not that it matters, because as I’ve said the designed obsolescence driven forced upgrades are injustice whether they are warned or not.
It is the bank’s problem because the bank chose the platform. And the bank chose a platform that all vendors neglect to maintain. (of course, that’s how capitalism works; there’s diminishing profits if you maintain the software for the life of the hardware). I countered that by installing the bank app on a virtual machine with recent SDK (which is the only way to get immunity from designed obsolescence). The bank app detected that it was being run inside of an VM and refused to run. So by your analogy, it’s more like the bank has deliberately taken an pro-active action to sabotage your car from reaching it.
You’re still ignoring human rights. When the bank takes a Canadian to court because the discriminatory treatment lead to inability to pay their debt, the gov itself is bound by the human rights covenant that they signed.
You’re confusing multiple different problems. The smartphone problems are inherited from a forced banking posture. You impose banking on people but you do not grant them a right to not use a smartphone so in principle all banks can force you to do something unethical (buy a phone every couple years). It’s also a money problem because the population pushed into forced banking is bigger than the home loan debtor population. It includes poor people. The mortgage problem is a problem of having a loan for 10-30 years out where you cannot predict how the banks will treat you, so you’re being forced to make a promise that you cannot guarantee. You cannot guarantee that your bank account is sustainable. You can’t guarantee that the law doesn’t change. And when the law does change the problem is it’s the human being who didn’t have negotiating leverage that takes the hit for the change, not the bank who has control over what they draft.