this post was submitted on 21 Apr 2025
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[–] pulsewidth@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

TL;DR: The end product is the same, whether it be natural or artificial. The real concern, is if the product should really be consumed at all.

This is hot crap. They are different chemicals, the end product is not the same and you're spouting misinformation.

Most of the artificial dyes that people have banned in countries other than the USA are derived from petrochemicals. Natural dyes have been in use far longer and have been shown to have fewer negative health outcomes.

Eg. Red dye containing bugs (cochineal, E120) has no known health effects except to an extremely small percentage of the population whom are allergic to bugs, hence it is marked as an ingredient when used, to alert those with allergies. Its replacement alternatives are:

  • red dye #2 (amaranth, E123) which was made from coal tar, and is now made from petroleum byproducts. It is a suspected carcinogen and is banned in most of the world including the US.
  • red dye #3 (erythrosine, E127) was first extracted from coal tar and is derived from phenol, currently extracted from petroleum byproducts and it is a known carcinogen and restricted heavily in what it can be used in since the early 1990s in every developed nation except the USA, until this very announcement by the FDA and RFK jr which will bring the USA in line with the rest of the world's protections. California also separately banned it in October 2023.
  • red dye 40 (Allura red) is an entirely synthetic dye invented by a chemical corporation in 1971 by azo coupling between diazotized 5-amino-4-methoxy-2-toluenesulfonic acid and 6-hydroxy-2-naphthalene sulfonic acid. I don't know what that means in order to determine if its feedstocks are petrochemicals, but mice studies showed bowel disorders and DNA damage which caused several countries to ban it over the years, however it's currently believed to be safe if the maximum daily limit is adhered to.

And that's just red dye.

[–] skuzz@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

You're talking about different chemicals as a comparison not a 1:1. I'll concede that some dyes may indeed exist only from chemical derivation. However, many do not. We've already put more thought into this than RFJ Jr. has, btw. (Not all dyes referenced below are foodsafe, to be clear, just a quick comparison chart.)

Random table of dyes that can be derived both ways:

Dye Name Natural Source Synthetic Production Chemical Formula References
Indigo Indigofera tinctoria (plant) From aniline via Baeyer-Drewsen synthesis C₁₆H₁₀N₂O₂ PubChem, Shepherd Textiles
Alizarin Rubia tinctorum (madder root) From anthraquinone C₁₄H₈O₄ Wikipedia, PubChem
Tyrian Purple Murex sea snails Bromination of indigo C₁₆H₈Br₂N₂O₂ Wikipedia, PMC Article
Cochineal (Carminic Acid) Dactylopius coccus (insect) Complex synthesis; often insect-derived C₂₂H₂₀O₁₃ PubChem, Wikipedia
Curcumin Curcuma longa (turmeric root) Lab synthesis possible C₂₁H₂₀O₆ PubChem, Wikipedia
Lawsone Lawsonia inermis (henna leaves) From 1,4-naphthoquinone C₁₀H₆O₃ Wikipedia, ACS
Betanin Beta vulgaris (beetroot) Rarely synthesized due to complexity C₂₄H₂₆N₂O₁₃ Wikipedia, PubChem
Quercetin Various plants (e.g., onions, apples) Can be synthesized; mostly extracted C₁₅H₁₀O₇ Wikipedia, PubChem