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These stories make me wish people hadn't reelected Bush and Obama when both made it very clear they were supportive of fascist policies like torture, extraordinary rendition, drone bombings without accountability, permanent imprisonment, etc.
None of this is new. It's just louder now.
no this is very new....
No, it's just at home now. The CIA has been torturing people in black sites around the globe for decades now. If anything, those conditions were far worse, since it doesn't seem like any migrants detained are getting waterboarded yet.
But not its own citizens. I'm aware of US war crimes and torture. I was never aware of camps holding legal immigrants
I guess you just slept through the War on Terror, then.
your original statement is correct, but i feel the need to speak up on behalf of obama.
the terrorist kill list was a little shady, but it was effective (although messy).
we really need to embrace the power of martial force for good. the good guys can't always take the high road. sometimes there is no better solution than to just apply a hammer.
Respectfully, Obama literally ordered the assassination of an American citizen.
Obama was an essential part of normalizing these extra-legal power grabs and the authoritarian state, and this is partly why Trump is able to get away with similar crimes.
You're more respectful then the person you are responding to deserves.
People are less likely to listen to your point of view if you don't approach them in good faith. I wish Democrats would learn this lesson.
do i really need to explain the nuance of this to you?
was it idealistically right? no. was it acceptable collateral damage in war? yes.
we firebombed entire civilian cities in WWII and we were the good guys. perspective is important.
EDIT: i do agree with you about how we have allowed the power of the executive branch to expand to a point that is now a crisis, but i will still defend obama as a president.
You can defend him all you like, I voted for him too but he's still part of the problem
I don't think bombing campaigns in WWII are comparable to a president ordering illegal assassinations of American citizens by fiat.
You can justify it to yourself if you like, but it's not an opinion that these crimes have normalized the activities of Donald Trump. (Though it was a 20+ year process that, IMHO, started with George W. Bush and 9/11)
i'm not disagreeing with you. i'm just trying to bring some nuance to some of the statements that have been made.
and you keep saying that is was an authorized assassination, which is not true. it was collateral damage.
Well, thank you for your perspective.
This is "effective" as well. For Musk/Trump.
Doesn't make it okay.
it's okay when the good guys do it. it's not ok when our enemies do it. goose and gander comparisons should never be made if it justifies your opposition. i'm just trying to get people to understand how wars work. "by any means necessary" is what it takes to win. if the victory defeats an existential threat to humanity, then whatever it took to do it was justified.
Everyone thinks they're the good guys. The people of the US cast GW Bush, then Obama, now Trump in the good guy seat and these tools were on the table.
The whole problem with your philosophy of "the ends justify the means" is that that way of thinking is in itself an existential threat to humanity.
of course everyone thinks they're the good guys. no one thinks they're the villain, but you and i know who the good guys are, right? no? well, you can end up in a pile with the rest of my enemies.
you don't get it, do you? whoever wins the war we are in gets to decide who the good guys were. there is no compromise. there never could be. it's always been a war. and it will be over when one side capitulates. don't be on the losing team.
you think the other side won't do whatever it takes to win? they're doing it now. do you want them to win? then you need to be prepared to do whatever it takes to stop them. THIS IS HOW WARS WORK. don't think we're in one? you're delusional.
Really was not expecting to see an openly fascist US nationalist on Lemmy of all places, but I guess it was only a matter of time.
If I wanted to be threatened by some bootlicker child from the other side of the world, I would be on the chans or playing Rust.
We're done here.
you still don't seem to grasp the point i'm trying to make.
how do you think we defeat the fascists? with hugs?
That's horseshit used to justify sweeping your mistakes under the rug
the point is that it takes messy solutions sometimes. we need to come to peace with that if we want to truly resist the current administration. you can't stay on your high horse forever if you want to survive.
Those "messy solutions" are real convenient for White America I've noticed. I wonder how willing you'd be to accept "collateral damage" if it was your hospitals and weddings getting bombed.
This is liberal garbage and a huge part of the reason America is so hated.
It's the same thing, only the leopards have turned around and started eating a different set of faces.
I've never heard stories of people with green cards getting sent to camp prisons though before.
Like I said. Same leopards. Green card holders just didn't think leopards would eat their faces.
The US has had these internationally illegal and abusive practices for a long time now. It has a whole infrastructure for it.
Google torture under George Bush.
Which one?
One of the comments compared US prisons to Dachau, reason has fled and fallen out of a high window
I didn't see the comment, but my guess is they were likely referring to Gitmo or El Nuevo Chipote.
Do you think these prisoners are being sent outside the country so they can be treated humanely?
They were not in fact referencing Gitmo, they were talking about other prisons