Europe
News and information from Europe πͺπΊ
(Current banner: La Mancha, Spain. Feel free to post submissions for banner images.)
Rules (2024-08-30)
- This is an English-language community. Comments should be in English. Posts can link to non-English news sources when providing a full-text translation in the post description. Automated translations are fine, as long as they don't overly distort the content.
- No links to misinformation or commercial advertising. When you post outdated/historic articles, add the year of publication to the post title. Infographics must include a source and a year of creation; if possible, also provide a link to the source.
- Be kind to each other, and argue in good faith. Don't post direct insults nor disrespectful and condescending comments. Don't troll nor incite hatred. Don't look for novel argumentation strategies at Wikipedia's List of fallacies.
- No bigotry, sexism, racism, antisemitism, islamophobia, dehumanization of minorities, or glorification of National Socialism. We follow German law; don't question the statehood of Israel.
- Be the signal, not the noise: Strive to post insightful comments. Add "/s" when you're being sarcastic (and don't use it to break rule no. 3).
- If you link to paywalled information, please provide also a link to a freely available archived version. Alternatively, try to find a different source.
- Light-hearted content, memes, and posts about your European everyday belong in !yurop@lemm.ee. (They're cool, you should subscribe there too!)
- Don't evade bans. If we notice ban evasion, that will result in a permanent ban for all the accounts we can associate with you.
- No posts linking to speculative reporting about ongoing events with unclear backgrounds. Please wait at least 12 hours. (E.g., do not post breathless reporting on an ongoing terror attack.)
- Always provide context with posts: Don't post uncontextualized images or videos, and don't start discussions without giving some context first.
(This list may get expanded as necessary.)
Posts that link to the following sources will be removed
- on any topic: RT, news-pravda:com, GB News, Fox, Breitbart, Daily Caller, OAN, sociable:co, citjourno:com, brusselssignal:eu, europesays:com, geo-trends:eu, any AI slop sites (when in doubt please look for a credible imprint/about page), change:org (for privacy reasons)
- on Middle-East topics: Al Jazeera
- on Hungary: Euronews
Unless they're the only sources, please also avoid The Sun, Daily Mail, any "thinktank" type organization, and non-Lemmy social media. Don't link to Twitter directly, instead use xcancel.com. For Reddit, use old:reddit:com
(Lists may get expanded as necessary.)
Ban lengths, etc.
We will use some leeway to decide whether to remove a comment.
If need be, there are also bans: 3 days for lighter offenses, 7 or 14 days for bigger offenses, and permanent bans for people who don't show any willingness to participate productively. If we think the ban reason is obvious, we may not specifically write to you.
If you want to protest a removal or ban, feel free to write privately to any of the mods: @federalreverse@feddit.org, @poVoq@slrpnk.net, or @anzo@programming.dev.
view the rest of the comments
The F35 is so much more advanced as an operations platform that the two are barely comparable and I say this as a staunch European.
Could you explain why, please?
This was already covered in great detail all over the internet, but the main two factors are:
Stealth. The F-35 is much harder to detect, and you can't attack what you don't know is there.
Less talked about is "sensor fusion" which aggregates sensor data from the aircraft and others to give a much fuller view of the situation.
Sensor fusion is something that any 4.5 gen fighter is capable of. Cool HUDs and XR is just marketing bling. It doesn't really matter. Scale, sensors, ew, range, load and cost benefit matter.
F-35 is good if you need first strike tactical nuke capabilities today. Or small carrier capabilities. However, modern sensors can probably catch your F-35s quite early on anyway. The extra stealth might be good if you're fighting goat herders with Soviet AA and radars from the 50s. But hey, then you can just go for an upgraded F-16 with some fancy EW.
Any rational state actor should skip 5th gen, push their 4.5s to the limit and go for unmanned gen 6+.
I don't necessarily disagree with your take here, but this is all conjecture until we see a 5th-gen in real combat. There was that story about an Israeli F-35 sneaking right up to a... I forget what, Syrian AF probably, but even if that anecdote really happened we haven't really seen them used in anger. As I said elsewhere here, China is really the only one who'd offer a near-peer opponent (unless god forbid the US go so far off the rails that they turn on NATO).
Thanks. This leaves me with follow up questions:
If the plane is used for defence, is visibility that important?
Sensor fusion is a software feature. Why can't it be replicated in other aircrafts easily?
I dont know the second thing but even defensively, stealth fighters are much more difficult to accurately aim at with sensors and guidance systems and such, and it also helps a ton if the enemy doesn't know how many planes you have and where they are from a strategic point of view. Stealth is simply a modern requirement to not be at a severe disadvantage.
Sure, it reduces losses and gives much more tactical advantage.
It isn't just software. Even the pilot's helmet in the F-35 is highly specialized and has integrated HUD:
Why can't the helmet be used in the Gripen?
The Gripen doesn't have the systems (hardware or software) to run it. The F-35 was designed from the ground up to use this.
SAAB have a basic version but there's less info about it and it's certainly less advanced. https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-releases/2016/saab-receives-order-from-fmv-for-a-new-helmet-mounted-display-system
The planes are designed to carry several tons of bombs. For sure there must be some space to store some CPUs and memory.
If the helmet is such a key feature then it's worth developing a European version. The good thing about a helmet is that it's easy to replace, unlike other parts of the plane. So the Gripen can be bought right now, and then suppliers can deliver helmets. Have an open market for them with a public specification of the interfaces and thus a thriving European helmet industry.
I must not be explaining this very well if that's your takeaway.
Well, I don't understand how a helmet can be so tightly coupled to a plane. There could be less cameras or less radar systems, but that can't limit the helmet to show whatever the sensors track.
Of course it could limit the helmet somehow, but that's what I want to understand.
One example I should have mentioned earlier is that the F-35 has cameras outside the plane so that the helmet HUD allows the pilot to look "through" the fuselage. It does much more than simply show sensor readings inside the visor.
Ok, and that's difficult to replicate on the Gripen?
With all the 3D gaming technology I cannot imagine that creating a 3D scene inside a helmet is so difficult that it's worth buying this superexpensive plane instead of paying mabe the price of one plane for 3 companies to develop helmets for a Gripen with some additional cameras.
The plane only has to be better than European opponents, which hopefully doesn't require being better than the F35.
The entire plane has to be redesigned from the ground up, that's what he's explaining. The F-35s are caked in sensors like a valve index. They have special paints and materials that absorb radar, making the radar profile look more like a bird than aircraft-sized hunk of metal, which is useful against Russian and Iranian anti air SAMs, the same ones taking down Ukrainian jets. But that also includes the body shape, the engine intakes (even engine blade materials), everything.
Can the Europeans create an F-35 class platform? Absolutely. But you can't just retrofit your way out of a brand new generation of plane. It's like trying to retrofit a Ford F-350 super duty to conform to Japanese Kei truck regulations and weight classes. You end up redesigning the whole thing.
Your comment is mostly about the stealth properties. If the plane is for defence and stealth is not that important, is the F-35 still needed for the 3D helmet or could a Gripen be enough?
I'm not an expert so you should look into this yourself but the way I understand it is that the F35 has leading EFW capabilities, the ability to be fully integrated into a digital battle management system (which is crucial in the NATO combined arms doctrine), can coordinate with autonomous drones and also has the best stealth factor.