In 6 hours it will be illegal to say "I support Palestine Action" in the UK, with a sentence of up to 14 years in prison. : aboringdystopia

[–] LadyButterfly@lemmy.world 26 points 1 day ago (2 children)

It's important to remember that the headline refers to the group Palestine action, which has carried out vandalisation of historical pieces, occupations of property, destruction etc (see here). So it's a group that fits the UK definition of an extremist group.

Some political groups (or even branches of them) can be political cults trapping members with coercive control It's not always idealistic well meaning people. The court that decreed them an unlawful group will have seen a lot of info we didn't.

I think we need to look deeper than the headline

[–] BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It's important to remember that the headline refers to the group Palestine action

Coming into this thread, thinking that you couldn't legally support Palestine in the UK anymore, I feel like the headline was just a bit misleading.

[–] LadyButterfly@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yep it's total clickbait, it's bordering on misinformation

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 1 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

It's rather misleading, yeah, but also, "technically correct"?

While we are clearly discussing an actual criminal group and not just people protesting for Palestine, the implications from a decision like that are a bit wider.

Civil disobedience is a crucial tool for democracy, but it's easy for that to be taken too far.

And at this time that Russia is waging a shadow war in Europe, we probably should be little wary of any even paramilitary-esque groups, despite how important it is to protest the genocide in Gaza.

Surely there's still plenty of legal ways to do that?

[–] LadyButterfly@lemmy.world 1 points 59 minutes ago (1 children)

Sorry I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the criminal group shouldn't be banned because the genocide is wrong?

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 1 points 40 minutes ago (1 children)

No, I'm not saying that.

It's just sometimes easy to smudge proper protesters with criminal groups, and historically that has happened a fair bit.

Like people can make a new organisation and try to step away from the criminal one, but also what's to prevent the criminal element from joining them as well, and then the same justification can be used to ban that group and on and on and on.

So honestly defining the point at which it could be argued to be suppression of political ideas is very hard to pinpoint, imo.

[–] LadyButterfly@lemmy.world 1 points 14 minutes ago (1 children)

I understand your concerns. The courts need a lot of evidence to do that though, and it's a long process. So realistically it doesn't happen unless it has to

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 1 points 6 minutes ago

Yeah, I'm just a tad worried, that's all. I'm not saying it's a slippery slide.

Just you know. It's not been a great direction the world's been going so...

[–] Smoogs@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

By that very definition the US insurrectionists should be reintroduced to jail

[–] BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 day ago

Double Jeopardy. You need to get them for something else... Not that it would be hard to find something, I guess

[–] LadyButterfly@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

I'd personally class that as terrorism. And they absolutely should be in jail.

[–] canajac@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action

Come and get me!!!

2020ish...Two Presidents team up to create a world without Palestinians.

1940ish...Two dictators team up to create a world without Jews.

[–] echodot@feddit.uk 114 points 2 days ago (33 children)

Just to be clear because everybody seems to be missing this point.

Palestinian Action, is an organisation. Membership of that group is banned, it is not illegal to support Palestinians or to call out Israel's genocide. The government doesn't like it when you do, but it's not actually illegal for you to do it.

This organisation broke into a UK air force base in order to protest. They are not being charged because they protested, they're being charged for breaking in and damaging a lot of military equipment. I think it's a bit far to call them terrorists, but you can sort of see the government's point, if you squint.

The UK government does however absolutely deserve to get it in the neck for their support of Israel. Labour have had a pretty awkward relationship with Israel in particular and anti-Semitism in general for a long time, and they're now keen to be seen as supporters, but there are limits.

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[–] aceshigh@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago (5 children)

Can someone explain why so many countries support what’s happening in Palestine? Whats going on behind the scenes here?

[–] testfactor@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (3 children)

I do think the situation is more complicated than Lemmy would have you believe.

Both Iran and Hamas have been geopolitical issues for a long time. And it's worth remembering that all of this was kicked off by a large scale terrorist attack perpetrated by Hamas.

It's also worth noting that Iran is a Russian puppet, and Europe obviously has some "neighbor problems" with Russia at the moment, so there's a sort of baked in desire to oppose their vassal states.

And, while I think everyone would agree that the loss of civilian life is terrible, there is a huge amount of misinformation that makes it hard to be sure what's going on. Hamas does have a long history of screwing over the civilian Palestinian population to further it's political goals, and so people are willing to give Israel a little more credence than they deserve when they claim things like "Hamas was hiding in that hospital" or "we're blocking aid because Hamas is hoarding it all to drive up tensions" or "it was Hamas who shot those civilians," because it actually wouldn't be the first time any of that had credibly happened. Something of a boy-cried-wolf scenario.

Add into that genuine desire to combat real anti-Semitism that's been a fallout of this whole situation (a problem that hits pretty close to home in Europe due to events of the past century), and you can see why some people might be a bit over-eager to support Israel in this conflict.

It's worth noting there are no good guys here. Israel is obviously in the wrong, and are committing horrible atrocities. I think that much is plain on its face. But Hamas and Iran have both had "the destruction of the state of Israel" as stated policy goals for the past 80 years. The reason Israel has the Iron Dome is because they've been getting missiles lobbed at them non-stop for decades.

And when there are no good guys, people tend to just align themselves with who they like more, or who they owe more to.

[–] luminn@lemmy.eco.br 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

And it's worth remembering that all of this was kicked off by a large scale terrorist attack perpetrated by Hamas.

This is insane when Israel was killing Palestinians years before Hamas even existed.

The Nakba happened 40 years before they existed.

Israel has commited genocide and ethnic cleansing since the first day it was conceived and reducing this to "both sides are bad" because the Palestinian way of resisting is not perfect is not an fair assessment of the situation.

[–] brot@feddit.org 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

This is a great example why we should be really careful discussing history here. Yes, the Nakba did happen. But what did happen before the Nakba? The arab attack on Israel right after it was founded. What did happen before that? The arab revolt from 1936-1939. What did happen after the Nakba? The deportation of Jews from nearly all arab countries. What did happen after that? Several wars, intifadas, terror acts from both sides and so on. There can't be peace when you use history like that. Both sides can point to atrocities of the other side and continue fighting - to take your words, palestinians were killing Jews even before Israel was founded and Israel was attacked several times with a clear genocidal intention and there are people living in Israel who were ethnical cleansed out of arab states.

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 1 points 5 hours ago

I feel like the saying "an eye for an eye makes the while world blind" fits here.

However, also,

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.

— Desmond Tutu

[–] couldhavebeenyou@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 day ago

Yeah and you´re totally sane when you ignore what happened before that, of course. Extremists from both sides have been trying to put a genocide on the other to claim the soon-to-be-independent territory for more than a hundred years

[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 day ago

Both Iran and Hamas have been geopolitical issues for a long time. And it’s worth remembering that all of this was kicked off by a large scale terrorist attack perpetrated by Hamas.

Propaganda is deeply effective because most people's world events attention span is like a dog that sees a squirrel. History starts at the chosen squirrel event, and of course, geopolitics is viewed as "Us the good guys" vs. "those who fail to obey us".

Your rant was praised as balanced, but is simply the official justification for colonial apartheid turned genocide our rulers, in submission to our own colonial masters, dictate upon us.

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[–] alyth@lemmy.world 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Most western countries have committed genocide or invasion in very recent history. Either in the context of WWII, colonialism or economic interests. Countries don't magically change over night. Wouldn't it be more surprising if they didn't support their ally?

[–] Redredme@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

Most ~~western~~ countries have committed genocide or invasion in very recent history. Either in the context of WWII, colonialism or economic interests. ~~Countries~~ people don't magically change over night. Wouldn't it be more surprising if they didn't support their ally?

There. Fixed that for you. Dont have to thank me, its good.

[–] bollybing@lemmynsfw.com 4 points 1 day ago

The idea that the actions of world powers are in any way governed by morality is largely a myth. Politicians will try to twist reality and use morality to justify killing people abroad and sometimes morality does align with their interests by coincidence.

But the motivations are always about furthering financial and strategic interests. See the overthrow of the Iranian regime in 1953 to protect oil interests, CIA coups and supporting murderous dictators in countless South American and other countries around the world, the recent Iraq war etc. If a government gets elected somewhere that would threaten our business interests (by taxing or nationalising them for example), we have historically supported bloody coups to remove them and install murderous facist regimes that enable us to keep making money at the cost of countless innocent lives.

Strategic in the sense that we prevent other powers in a region from becoming strong enough to challenge us. Keeping ourselves on top and in charge by keeping others down. Israel is a valuable ally in this regard - they maintain power in the region by keeping others down and keep them focused more on destroying Israel than attacking us.

Palestinian lives aren't important to our governments. They have no real power and there's no real profit to be made from them. Our strategic interest in supporting Israel will always trump any humanitarian interest in preventing genocide.

[–] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

Big Israeli lobby. Bribes and Epstein blackmail.

[–] brot@feddit.org 1 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Let's be honest: No country would act different from Israel when facing a situation as with Gaza. No country could tolerate an attack like Oct 7th on its territory, esp with everything that happened before with all the rocket and suicide attacks. Just think about how the Americans reacted to 9/11. They started bombing Afghanistan and Iraq even if both countries really didn't have much to do with 9/11. In this case it would be a scenario like "9/11 was done by a narco cartel in a small part of Mexico where central authority lost control" or something like that.

Combine it with the fact that all western states have no sympathies for islamist extremists like Hamas, because they are not muslim and also because most western states suffered from islamist attacks. Most states also see Hamas (an Hezbollah) as an Iranian proxy militia (which they are) and have also no sympathies to Iran, its theocratic dictatorship, its nuclear program and its military alliance with Russia.

[–] ultranaut@lemmy.world 4 points 23 hours ago

I don't think this is honesty because you are only addressing Hamas. Of course any nation would respond to an Oct. 7th type event, but Israel has very obviously gone far beyond that. The pogroms in the West Bank for example, there's no connection between Hamas and the villages being emptied and seized. Smotrich and his ilk have been very explicit about the intent of Israeli actions.

[–] als@lemmy.blahaj.zone 21 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The Met statement (https://news.met.police.uk/news/update-on-policing-in-london-following-proscription-of-palestine-action-499157) includes a 'report your neighbour' statement; "If you see material supporting terrorism online report it – visit www.gov.uk/ACT

You can also report suspicious activity by contacting the police in confidence on 0800 789 321."

Use this information wisely.

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[–] Zephorah@discuss.online 13 points 1 day ago (1 children)

At risk of sounding like that dipshit Vance, you guys don’t have free speech, not really. The uk seems to exist in a “yes, but no” realm. The press can’t report on trials such that it might influence outcome. 1988 law iirc. That’s smart, but it’s still a guardrail on speech. Some of the arrests and even sentences over there, for speech and sometimes even ideology related infractions, are a bit wild. I remember reading something about a woman being fined for calling her ex a leprechaun on social media.

That said, I feel a need to reiterate how crazy this defense of war and slaughter is. I’ve been a casual observer at best but I do not understand why either government cares if a people across an ocean (who are not and never will be boots on the ground for either side of this war) say they don’t like a war. So what? The war will rage on regardless of wether or not college students in Michigan walk around outside on a nice day holding signs. Or if some guy in London posts an objection on social media. That’s not even a speed bump to this war or either government if either government even sees or hears any of it. So why does either government even care? Why even spend energy on that? For them, it’s like a volume setting that maybe can’t be turned to zero, but in the end it’s just a bit of noise to them. So why bother? The war will continue. As such, their reaction makes no sense whatsoever.

[–] mad_lentil@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 day ago

I think it makes sense when you consider there are many government workers who do not support the genocide of Palestinians, and would be more vocal about it if they the political capital that, say, a large protest nets you.

It's actually possible to end this with only the ingredients we have available right now.

[–] tane@lemmy.zip 33 points 2 days ago (5 children)

Every British politician belongs in a mass grave. Just a total stain on humanity

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[+] Tracaine@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

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[–] splonglo@lemmy.world 52 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Not only is the ruling wrong - it is the very thing it claims to be opposing. It is itself an act of terrorism, carried out with the intention of inspiring fear in the British public to further a political agenda.

In every way, the British government is replicating the actions it accuses PA of - except that the scale of harm to British society and the terror inspired is magnitudes greater, and performed in service of the opposite political goal.

This is a terror attack by the government against the British people.

The British people's opinion and will are the thing from which the goverment gains it's only source of legitimacy - and they do not line up with the government on this issue.

But evidently the government believes in a different model of legitimacy: they believe that legitimacy is derived from the mere fact that they hold power. In the mind of the government and it's supporters, the difference between a terrorist organisation and a legitimate government is just power and only power. To them, right and wrong has absolutely nothing to do with it. They think that they are winning, and that they are going to get away with it. Nothing else matters.

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[–] Clbull@lemmy.world 44 points 2 days ago (5 children)

I'm more shocked it hasn't already happened to Extinction Rebellion, Insulate Britain or Just Stop Oil.

But I guess blockading motorways and rocking up to art museums dressed like extras from a Wham music video and defacing paintings makes you less of a threat than wanting Netanyahu to stop his genocide of the Palestinian people.

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[–] MetalMachine 24 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Time to make a new group and to spite them call it "palestine 2 action"

[–] alt_xa_23@lemmy.world 16 points 2 days ago

2 Palestine 2 Action

[–] Jakule17@lemmy.world 14 points 1 day ago

Luckily I’m not from Terf island (although things aren’t looking so good around here either), but I support Palestine action

[–] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 22 points 2 days ago (2 children)

There are few things I like about being an American, but one of them is the first amendment. It doesn't always work, and Trump is sure to try some shit like this soon, but at least I know for now I won't go to prison for saying that I do indeed support Palestine Action

[–] Nalivai@discuss.tchncs.de 59 points 2 days ago (3 children)

You could absolutely go to prison for it. A group of people in an unmarked van can grab you, send you to a prison in your country or even somewhere else, where you will be tortured possibly to death, and even if there will be an international fuss about it, nobody will ever do anything about it.
There is no more laws in your country, none.

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[–] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 21 points 1 day ago (1 children)

As long they can send people to torture prisons without due process or evidence, we do NOT have a First Amendment.

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[–] khaleer@sopuli.xyz 35 points 2 days ago

That's good reason to remind people, that law is written by particular people, mostly to protect those people interests.

[–] kreskin@lemmy.world 31 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Feeding, housing and guarding someone for 14 years has got to be ridiculously expensive. All for uttering a few words.

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[–] sik0fewl@lemmy.ca 226 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Codifying your genocide support into law. Nice.

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A Boring Dystopia