this post was submitted on 16 Mar 2025
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[–] BigBenis@lemmy.world 17 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (1 children)

You have the freedom to choose God or face an eternity of unimaginable suffering.

[–] dontbelasagne@lemmy.world 11 points 11 hours ago (2 children)

No good god would make an unlasting punishment. if you have forever, then even Hitler, Dahmer would have enough time for a finite punishment. Even the worst people in the world don't deserve a unlasting punishment.

[–] beejboytyson@lemmy.world 1 points 8 hours ago (3 children)

I always wondered about that. When would enough be enough.

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[–] Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world 25 points 14 hours ago (8 children)

Did god not have the power to give us free will without also giving us evil?

  • Had the power but opted not to: god is himself some part evil

  • Didn't have the power, did the best he could with the tools he had: god is not omnipotent.

Pick one.

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[–] Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 14 hours ago (9 children)

Well, since this is a religious discussion, I'm a Christian. It's always God.

Job 1:6-12 very clearly shows God granting permission for Satan to test Job.

1 Kings 22:19-22 shows the "court in heaven" and God soliciting ideas from spirits for enticing Ahab to attack Ramoth Gilead, where he will die. When a good suggestion is made, God grants permission.

Exodus 10:1-2 states clearly that God hardened Pharaoh's heart to not let the slaves go, so that God could display his "signs" (plagues).

Satan is a liar, and the father of lies.

Romans 9:19-21 NIV

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

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[–] FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world 49 points 18 hours ago (2 children)

Yup.

The teachings of Christianity don't make any fucking sense. (Unless you're willing to gaslight yourself for a lifetime.)

[–] callouscomic@lemm.ee 28 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (1 children)

Now now, don't discount free reign to also gaslight others for a lifetime as well. And judge and shame others too. It's great for complete assholes.

[–] FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world 7 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

I think that's part of the appeal: the ingrained superiority Christians feel.

[–] samus12345@lemm.ee 4 points 11 hours ago

Not just Christians, that's a common thing with any cult, be it for a person, a country, etc.

[–] _stranger_@lemmy.world 6 points 16 hours ago

That's the point of religion. Trick the brain into thinking everything is going according to plan so that it gives out the happy time drugs instead of the "you need to wake the fuck up and do something about this" drugs. The religion pushers get their cut, and everyone thinks their happy.

[–] tacobellhop@midwest.social 2 points 10 hours ago

Thought terminating cliche

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 15 points 19 hours ago (26 children)

What shits me is Christians (and Jews and Muslims, but it's mainly Christians who do this) who just handwave away the problem of evil. Like fine, I can accept that some evils might arise as a result of human decisions and free will. Things like wars and genocides are done by people. It's difficult to swallow even that much with the idea of a god who supposedly knows all, is capable of doing anything, and is "all good", but fine, maybe free will ultimately supplants all that.

But what I absolutely cannot accept is any claim that tries to square the idea of a god with the triple-omnis with the fact that natural disasters happen. That children die of cancer. You try telling the parents of a child slowly dying of a painful incurable disease that someone could fix it if they wanted, and they completely know about it, but that they won't. And then try telling them that person is "all good". See how they react.

I find religious people who believe in the three omnis after having given it any amount of serious consideration to be absolutely disgusting and immoral people.

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[–] popcap200@lemmy.ml 14 points 20 hours ago (8 children)

I think you can have this same dilemma as an atheist as well. I'm personally agnostic as I don't have the knowledge to make a decision.

If we are all just atoms moving/reacting, surely everything we'd ever do would be predetermined by the initial reactions/vectors/forces at the big bang. I know there's quantum randomness and stuff, but it's possible that's all calculable and we simply don't have the means to calculate it. If that's the case, IMO we still have freewill because we can't predict the future, and it's still worthwhile to move forward doing our best to be good people.

[–] communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz 4 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (1 children)

This isn't a problem for athiests, I am a determinist athiest, we have no free will and the idea is silly in a place governed by physical laws. It honestly doesn't matter at all to me and I don't see any reason to care.

it's a problem for theists because this is supposed to be a big test, god is checking if we belong in heaven. If we have no free will the test makes no sense at all.

[–] eru@mouse.chitanda.moe 2 points 11 hours ago (11 children)

not a christian, but it is a problem for atheists depending on your framework of morality

traditionally, determinism is not compatible with moral responsibility since all actions are predetermined and it is not obvious that one can be held morally responsible for them. you have to do some mental gymnastics with either the nature of causation (see hume), or the nature of morality (see error theory), or the nature of what exactly 'freedom' is (see john stewart mill) to resolve this incompatibility

to the problem of the theist test, standard christian doctrine is that your fate in heaven is predetermined and individuals have been pre-chosen by god (theological term is 'the elect'). in that sense, your worldly life is not a 'test', but the idea is that the holy spirit reveals god to those who have been selected.

there are philosophical problems with all of these, but just wanted to make the point that both theist and atheist philosophers have been debating this for hundreds of years and it is not at all actually obvious accepting hard determinism solves everything.

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[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 20 points 19 hours ago (14 children)

My take is that there is no free will, but that this fact is irrelevant and we're all better off just behaving as though we do.

[–] samus12345@lemm.ee 2 points 11 hours ago

John Calvin approves.

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[–] iAmTheTot@sh.itjust.works 12 points 19 hours ago (3 children)

That's not a dilemma for atheists because atheists aren't the ones claiming there's an omnipotent being guiding everything.

Also, you can be both an atheist and an agnostic. They cover different things. I'm fairly certain you'd consider yourself an atheist in regards to the sun god Ra.

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