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honestly there's just better buzzes out there with less side effects, especially for social fun
cannabis (not quite the same, but great social lubricant if everyone starts sober and gets high together)
kratom (more medical utility but can be fun for outdoor adventures in groups. starts as a stim and ends with some sleepiness, so plan properly) (DISCLAIMER: not recommended for experimentation but has current and historical uses as an alcohol alternative) for more info check out layla's guide
kava (basically IRL synthahol from star trek. dials right in to the 1-2 drink buzz with no risk of further. downside is reverse tolerance and doesn't work for everyone)
some kind of GABA-B substance (more risky since most are research chems (F-phenibut comes to mind), often very long lasting, but all the inhibition of alcohol without being drunk and hard to black out on unlike GHB agonists).
(all have a risk of addiction as any substance but comedowns/withdrawals are significantly less then alcohol, as well as not being potentially lethal. also OD risk is either physically impossible or extremely difficult)
I don't know how to say this nicely. Don't do kratom unless you're already an opioid addict and you need to come off. It's not a safe drug to experiment with recreationally because it's so easy to get addicted to. I'm a heavy drug user and promote experimenting with drugs except for opioids (and kratom) because of how many people I've seen absolutely ruin their lives on it.
This is very sensationalist
i know vastly more people that use kratom occasionally and responsibly then don't. not everyone has that spark inside that lights up when mu receptors are tripped. just because we have it doesn't apply to everyone.
much of the recent media blitz against kratom is due to the kratom lobby's deal with RFK jr to ban 7-OH in exchange for saving leaf kratom. not sure if this is going to work.
increase in addiction to "kratom" is mostly due to ease of access to 7-OH and highly potent liquid concentrates at gas stations. in high doses, kratom's natural antagonists are overwhelmed by the partial opioid agonists (or in the case of 7-OH, full agonists). thus, it behaves more like a classical opioid. and since the average person's first exposure to kratom these days is potent concentrate shots, they can more easily become physically addicted.
occasional use of leaf (or full spectrum concentrates) has low risk of physical addiction. leaf at less then 1-2 g a day could take months to develop physical addiction.
i used kratom to get off stronger opioids, and to prevent cravings or a relapse. for .50 a day it was a fine bargin to make. all my plugs disappeared, i fell away from the scene entirely, and can now taper slowly at my leisure.
but it is vastly more difficult to become instantly addicted off kratom because it's short acting, partial agonism, and delta action. too much and it's like you've taken Salvia, right down to the "flushing" effect, dizziness, and disassociation. it's like a built in braking system. also nearly impossible to OD.
not sure how this is ruining lives. there will always be exceptions. compared to every other opioid out there, it is the safest and best tolerated and that's an absolute scientific fact
I definitely think it should be legal and accessible because it's a valuable tool for people on opioids. I don't think we have a kratom epidemic. But in a conversation about alcohol alternatives with people who aren't as informed about drug experimentation, I'd voice that kratom as a lot more potential consequences from say kava, cannabis, etc.
i don't disagree with you there. look i mod the drugs com, and our #1 priority is harm reduction. and i know we aren't on it right now
i added disclaimers, i can add more for kratom. but it is undeniably used as an alternative to alcohol for many people (i often read the AKA testimonials and i was surprised myself), i can't conceal that fact.
Have you really seen people ruin their lives from just kratom use?
Yes. I had a buddy who started taking it to ween away from his alcoholic tendency to enjoy a 5th of whiskey every night, and he quickly became addicted.
He told me the withdrawals felt worse than what he was dealing with from the alcohol (though he was getting hit with both), ended up losing his job and spiraling into a recluse who spent all his time in bed or doing kratom. He eventually got help and got better.
There's this idea that its a "safe" drug, and posts encouraging its use in threads like these as some sort of alternative to getting drunk don't help that perception. Its very addictive and the withdrawal symptoms suck just as much if not more than with booze, although I don't think you can die from Kratom withdrawal the way you can from alcohol. Someone fact check me on that.
Edit: What makes it dangerous is how quickly you can become physically dependent on Kratom.
I found alcohol much worse, a lot closer to what I have seen in fent withdrawal (never personally experienced that fortunately)
Definitely became dependant but it felt more like antidepressant dependency, where the addiction isn't psychologically difficult but stopping cold turkey sucks. Sometimes I wonder if it would have been much harder to quit if I didn't have to order it in the mail, which is a pretty good obstacle for a craving.
I mean there's not a lot of research into kratom withdrawal, but from my experience it's not anywhere near deadly, and I've withdrawn from pretty high doses. I had a much worse time withdrawaling from alcohol and actual opiates, kratom withdrawal was something that I could still hold my job through,
I recommend kratom to users of pretty much any hard drugs because it's far more functional of a drug. I know people who didn't really get sober, but they switched out their meth or fentanyl use with kratom and started living functional lives. Shit, I did it with fentanyl and got my life back for a while, it really only got nasty when I started mixing it with alcohol or experimenting with 7-OH.
It's safe in the sense that compared to everything else you can get ahold of, it's the least likely to ruin your life.
Yeah. Dude's aren't ODing on it, but they just sit in their apartment everyday doing nothing but kratom. It ruins tour social life, it ruins your work life, and it just straight up ruins your life because it's so hard to stop using.
how's that even possible? by your second dose you feel nothing. your bloodstream is loaded with anatongists it's like being on narcan. only people that i'm aware of doing this are in severe, chronic pain.
it's not heroin there is no escalating high. at most you feel like you took 1 vicodin. this has got to be people pounding down 7-OH tablets, which is 0.05% of kratom by weight and purely synthetic
fwiw, I hear kratom hits different if you've never been on dope
It helped me get to work as the least impairing drug I found that dulled my emotional pain enough. After work was for liquor lol
I feel like I had a pretty successful run with it and the times I had to withdrawal weren't nearly as bad as what people say, though I guess you can't know what your withdrawal will be like until you've done it
Not kratom in isolation. But if there is one drug that I'd say to not fuck around with it's opioid and opioid-like analgesics. I have some friends who have been struggling for the past 15 years to get off of opioids, and many who didn't make it. No other drug category has contributed more to decimating my friend group.
I worked in addiction treatment and harm reduction. The demons who took your friends from you will not stop until as many people are dead as possible. It is class warfare imo. Wish you and your friends well comrade.