The tail doesn't wag the dog. AIPAC and Israel have some level of counterinfluence over the US, but the US Empire is the hegemon, and Israel its vassel. Trying to paint the US as under the control of Israel is mostly an actually antisemetic dogwhistle, and plays into the idea that a Jewish cabal is controlling the world's Empire.

I know you probably aren't intending it that way, but it's important to correctly criticize the genocidal entity "Israel." Mis-analyzing the dynamics at play weakens our chances of rectifying them.

[–] LupineTroubles@hexbear.net 1 points 20 hours ago

I am not sure I agree with this fully, in the sense obviously Israel is a project of Western hegemony and that Israel exists and existed at behest of US and Europe as a foothold to keep the politics of the region volatile and easily influenced. So at a state level, Israel is beholden to US and the West not the other way around. However states don't exist as some sort of supranational hivemind that dictates politics and diplomacy purely with raison d'état, a state and its institutions are composed of people who themselves have direct influence on policy that can at times go against that raison d'état or just have obvious conflicts of interests that are navigated within circumstances of policy. I don't think at this stage anyone can deny that Israeli lobbies, chiefly AIPAC, has disproportionate influence over US politicians at legislative level, executive and judiciary is generally independent of this but house and senate seems to have reached a sort of critical mass of AIPAC-backed (directly funded and supported) candidates that essentially share a mission in Zionism and any which falls out of this line just has to fight against the establishment at very disadvantage terms.

So while I agree that the idea that Israel is somehow the ones that are pulling the strings are an antisemitic trope and ignoring the fact that Israel started as an European colonial project that was backed and supported by West for Western interests and directly tied to US policy in middle-east, and as Biden said once if it didn't exist it'd be necessary to invent it, we can't just ignore the undue and disproportionate influence that Israeli Zionist lobbies have in US politics especially at legislative level. Of course this is not just Israel, since there exists other lobbies such as Gulf lobby that are doing similar things and at times even seem to have more influence at executive but it is not quite at the level of AIPAC and the rest.

[–] fxomt@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Beautifully put. It is not that the US/EU are at the mercy of Israel, or are concerned to cut ties; they know fully well what they are doing. Israel is a colony for them to assert their power in the region. If the US/EU didn't exist, neither would Israel. If Israel didn't exist, they would just create another Israel in the region for their interest.

Its not just Israel, either. Most Arab states are puppets for them too, basically showing face to their populations anti-zionism, Arab unity and all that bullshit, but then turning around and dealing with Israel and "fighting arab extremism". After sykes-picot/invading nations/influencing revolutions/pouring endless money to far right insurgents, we are effectively neutered but our resources are open wide.

Especially the monarchies, while the royals live in unimaginable wealth the common people don't live lavishly, and poverty is a rampant problem. After sykes picot the British/US supported/installed these royal families, and crushed revolutions (like the dhofar rebellion/bahraini uprising etc). They are just shells for the imperialists to suck the resources out of the people.

Only a few politicians ever stood against this, mainly Nasser and Mossadegh come to mind. Mossadegh dared nationalize Iran's oil and got overthrown, then got a brutal pro-west monarchy installed. Nasser nationalized the Suez canal and got invaded by the UK/France/Israel.

Israel is just a colony for them to directly meddle in the region and keep the people in their place. This works exceptionally well, sadly. They prioritize profits over the people, leaving millions here to suffer.

I honestly believe the middle east will only ever be free once these bullshit Sykes-Picot borders are abolished, Israel no longer existing (not death to the population, to the apartheid state) and ending imperialist meddling in the region. That is a distant dream though 🥲

Whooh that was a lot to write lol, I was bored and saw this so thought might as well share this wall of text/infodump xd. Tl;dr: Israel is a western colony and the middle east is not truly independent.

If you're interested to start learning about this, I highly recommend starting at Sykes-Picot/WW1, specifically the battles against the Ottomans, and the Arab revolt, those events caused the creation of the modern middle east as we know it.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Thanks for your comment! I definitely need to read more about the Middle East, I'll see if I can find books going over the events you talked about.

[–] fxomt@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

No problem, sadly I don't have any good recommendations, but a book that has lots of praise is about the Sykes Picot agreement (JIC: it was a secret treaty by the British/French defining borders/spheres of influence in a purely economic POV, which caused the insane instability/wars/shuffling around minorities and people in the next century, agreed upon behind the backs of the Arabs who fought against the Ottomans after they were promised most of the land by the Brits/French) A line in the Sand: Britain, France and the Struggle that Shaped the Middle East. I've heard about A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East too. Wikipedia is also a solid source about this stuff, it would also be good to research Arab nationalists/socialists and their works, since they've probably addressed most of this stuff too.

Honestly this is such a nuanced and shitshow of a topic, it's both funny and depressing at the same time lol. Good luck with your search! And have a good week

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 day ago

Thanks for the recs! And you too, have a great week!

[–] Mrkawfee@lemmy.world 12 points 2 days ago (1 children)

John Mearsheimer also argues this and he is no antisemite. It's possible that Israel is a proxy of the US Empire while it's domestic lobby group has inordinate influence on US politics. Both things can be true.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago

Yep, both are true, but the balance of power is still heavily in the US's favor. Israel has counter-influence, of course, but at the end of the day it's the US that holds all of the cards.

[–] anarchoilluminati@hexbear.net 10 points 2 days ago

Totally agree. That being said, Epstein was a Mossad op.

[–] TheAlbatross@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Well said as usual

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 days ago

🫡

[–] TheAlbatross@lemmy.blahaj.zone 51 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I think Trump has enough motivation on his own to not want it to be further confirmed he's a child rapist, not sure why he needs to be held at gunpoint for this, there's not much need for conspiracy.

[–] crankyrebel@lemmy.dbzer0.com -5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Epstein = Mossad agent maybe?

[–] TheAlbatross@lemmy.blahaj.zone 17 points 2 days ago (2 children)

But why? There's no need for that for everything to make sense. Epstein was a wealthy financier who also was a sex trafficker of young people to the rich and famous. We know he worked with Trump and Trump has been confirmed to have been on the island where he pimped out the young people he trafficked.

He's a Mossad agent... why? Simply because he's Jewish? Bibi is pulling the strings.... why? Idk man this feels like some "Jewish conspiracy" bullshit with a thin veneer of "It's Bibi so it's anti-Zionist and that makes it fine".

This is a weird post and you should feel weird.

[–] crankyrebel@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Not because he is Jewish, but because he was a Zionist.

Jeffrey Epstein Rumored Mossad Connection Explained

[–] TheAlbatross@lemmy.blahaj.zone 18 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

I'm not sure the conspiracy minded ramblings of Tucker Carlson are something one has to bear in mind at any point in their lives.

Like, yeah, fuck Epstein, Trump, Bibi, and Zionism, but c'mon...

Let's pretend Epstein is confirmed as a Mossad asset, for a moment. It still isn't necessary for Bibi to be pulling the strings here for Trump to have plenty of reasons to want to shut down inquiry into Epstein's work. It's just conspiracy for conspiracy's sake.

Furthermore, I'm not sure what the point of this post is, other than promoting this conspiracy you've come up with. It's not funny and it just plays into antisemitic tropes but applies them to Zionists

[–] SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Why does right wing propaganda like Tucker Carlson resonate so strongly with some of the left?

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

They don’t resonate with us, nor do we pay them attention. The few instances where we agree are merely coincidental and usually for different reasons.

Consortium News, 2020: Epstein Case: Documentaries Won’t Touch Tales of Intel Ties

Absent from both are [Ghislaine] Maxwell’s reported links to Israeli intelligence through her father, Robert Maxwell, former owner of The New York Daily News and The Mirror newspaper in London.

In an interview with Consortium News, former Israeli intelligence officer Ari Ben-Menashe said Epstein did not work with Mossad. “Military intelligence was who he was working with,” said Ben-Menashe. “Big difference,” he said. “He never worked with Mossad, and Robert Maxwell never did, either. It was military intelligence.”

Ben-Menashe claimed Robert Maxwell was Epstein’s “tie over. Robert Maxwell was the conduit [in the Iran-Contra scandal]. The financial conduit.”

[–] SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The person I was replying to linked an article using Carlson as a primary source.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I know.

Carlson is hard to avoid. You don’t necessarily have to seek out his opinion to be aware of it. And I wouldn’t know how “left” OP is.

[–] SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.world 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You just showed how easy it was to talk about this topic without mentioning Tucker.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 days ago

It’s not so easy. Most people—even those ostensibly on the “left”—aren’t even aware of non-corporate left media like MintPress News and Consortium News.

[–] Limonene@lemmy.world 0 points 2 days ago

You're the first person in this thread to bring up Jewishness.

[–] iAvicenna@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

except maybe there are about 50+ or more guns at his back